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No one really has a choice with C, but its tally was very interesting.. I think there is a lot more vertical movement and the horizontal stuff might be a sides

No one really has a choice with C, but its tally was very interesting.. I think there is a lot more vertical movement and the horizontal stuff might be a sideshow without considering overlap or experience with C or JavaScript as significant in how one transitions between purely competing languages. But JavaScript's real problem for the analysis might be that its competition is largely excluded since the walled garden apps rarely have related code on GitHub, even if their language is present.

freehunter 9y ago
There's a huge choice for C. For a lot of uses, you can use C++, Go, Java, Rust, or a few other systems languages. The only thing that needs C is some very niche embedded stuff, or the Linux kernel (also niche).
- bluejekyll 9y ago
  All the major Unix kernels are in C. If it continues this trend, it seems clear that new kernels in new languages will be needed, or existing kernels will need to be ported to other languages. A memory safe one would be cool...
  - muricula 9y ago
    Or maybe C is uniquely suited to the task of writing a kernel, after all that's what it was designed for.
    - Inityx 9y ago
      https://www.redox-os.org/ https://www.redox-os.org/
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Not really, kernels were being written in HLL 10 years before C existed, and at strange places like IBM research. The only good thing about it is that the language is easier to write a compiler for, as it is basically a portable macro assembler, specially the K&R C variant.
    - blattimwind 9y ago
      Operating systems were written in high(er) level languages a number of years before C, or UNIX, were invented.
  - thehardsphere 9y ago
    Well, if you think that C is going to go the way of conversational Latin, that would probably be accurate. I doubt that's accurate, because: 1. The fact that fewer people are choosing C for other projects doesn't mean they can't or won't learn it for kernels. 2. Nobody has yet to produce a language that is clearly superior to C for systems programming. Otherwise, we would be seeing movement towards that language instead of Java and Python. The other thing to remember is that these are GitHub projects; the vast majority of them are not going to be kernels but application software or libraries. That would explain the moves from C to Java and Python; it's easier to write applications in those languages.
    - bluejekyll 9y ago
      > clearly superior to C for systems programming. I would argue Rust already has.
      - thehardsphere 9y ago
        When someone writes a system based on Rust, that claim will be much stronger.
        steveklabnik 9y ago
        What kind of "system" are you looking for?
        bluejekyll 9y ago
        Some of my favorite examples: https://os.phil-opp.com https://os.phil-opp.com https://github.com/helena-project/tock https://github.com/helena-project/tock https://www.redox-os.org https://www.redox-os.org https://github.com/redox-os/tfs https://github.com/redox-os/tfs https://github.com/intermezzOS/kernel https://github.com/intermezzOS/kernel The biggest application example: https://github.com/servo/servo https://github.com/servo/servo And some self promotion: https://github.com/bluejekyll/trust-dns https://github.com/bluejekyll/trust-dns ---- I encourage all programmers to check it out. You may discover like me, that Rust is a compiler and language which guards against all the hard learned lessons I've had over my career. It's an amazing language to program in.
- remline 9y ago
  Right, so the restrictions on at the bottom seem pretty meaningless, and that matches the migration off of C. So how do we justify this JavaScript as forced labor argument? The programmer can decide to do webapps that run atop C and get assistance from a backend that ultimately runs on C. The programmer can use backend frameworks that deliver incantations in JavaScript much like their downcalls to C. If the migration were toward metal we would be hearing that C has to be excluded. Really how the Buffalo herd is moving does matter in a discussion of what ditches they are stuck in in the middle Savannah.
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    >The programmer can decide to do webapps that run atop C Please explain how to make a slippymap[1] in C. For srs, I'm making a hobby project at the moment that needs a dynamic, interactable map on a webpage, and as a long time noscript user it galls me a little to use JS. The only compromise I can come up with is re-hosting the JS libraries I use and ensuring they don't have their own dependencies so that users only need to enable my domain for the site to work. If you can tell me how to do the same thing in C, I'll swap to it immediately. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slippy_Map http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slippy_Map
    - homarp 9y ago
      >Please explain how to make a slippymap[1] in C. The same way Doom has been compiled and run in the browser. https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-and-Demos https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-...
      - Sir_Substance 9y ago
        But emscripten compiles...to javascript. I guess that meets the criteria of "programming for the web but not making github commits in javascript", but it doesn't really solve my problem. Oh well.
        9y ago
microcolonel 9y ago
I think you could make the argument that because the C ABI is available in most compiled languages, you do have a choice. Whereas on the web, JavaScript is the ABI.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Not really when doing code on UNIX or aiming for portability. There are still systems that lack full C++98 compliant compilers, for example (mostly embedded stuff).

freehunter 9y ago

There's a huge choice for C. For a lot of uses, you can use C++, Go, Java, Rust, or a few other systems languages. The only thing that needs C is some very niche embedded stuff, or the Linux kernel (also niche).

bluejekyll 9y ago
All the major Unix kernels are in C. If it continues this trend, it seems clear that new kernels in new languages will be needed, or existing kernels will need to be ported to other languages. A memory safe one would be cool...
- muricula 9y ago
  Or maybe C is uniquely suited to the task of writing a kernel, after all that's what it was designed for.
  - Inityx 9y ago
    https://www.redox-os.org/ https://www.redox-os.org/
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Not really, kernels were being written in HLL 10 years before C existed, and at strange places like IBM research. The only good thing about it is that the language is easier to write a compiler for, as it is basically a portable macro assembler, specially the K&R C variant.
  - blattimwind 9y ago
    Operating systems were written in high(er) level languages a number of years before C, or UNIX, were invented.
- thehardsphere 9y ago
  Well, if you think that C is going to go the way of conversational Latin, that would probably be accurate. I doubt that's accurate, because: 1. The fact that fewer people are choosing C for other projects doesn't mean they can't or won't learn it for kernels. 2. Nobody has yet to produce a language that is clearly superior to C for systems programming. Otherwise, we would be seeing movement towards that language instead of Java and Python. The other thing to remember is that these are GitHub projects; the vast majority of them are not going to be kernels but application software or libraries. That would explain the moves from C to Java and Python; it's easier to write applications in those languages.
  - bluejekyll 9y ago
    > clearly superior to C for systems programming. I would argue Rust already has.
    - thehardsphere 9y ago
      When someone writes a system based on Rust, that claim will be much stronger.
      - steveklabnik 9y ago
        What kind of "system" are you looking for?
      - bluejekyll 9y ago
        Some of my favorite examples: https://os.phil-opp.com https://os.phil-opp.com https://github.com/helena-project/tock https://github.com/helena-project/tock https://www.redox-os.org https://www.redox-os.org https://github.com/redox-os/tfs https://github.com/redox-os/tfs https://github.com/intermezzOS/kernel https://github.com/intermezzOS/kernel The biggest application example: https://github.com/servo/servo https://github.com/servo/servo And some self promotion: https://github.com/bluejekyll/trust-dns https://github.com/bluejekyll/trust-dns ---- I encourage all programmers to check it out. You may discover like me, that Rust is a compiler and language which guards against all the hard learned lessons I've had over my career. It's an amazing language to program in.
remline 9y ago
Right, so the restrictions on at the bottom seem pretty meaningless, and that matches the migration off of C. So how do we justify this JavaScript as forced labor argument? The programmer can decide to do webapps that run atop C and get assistance from a backend that ultimately runs on C. The programmer can use backend frameworks that deliver incantations in JavaScript much like their downcalls to C. If the migration were toward metal we would be hearing that C has to be excluded. Really how the Buffalo herd is moving does matter in a discussion of what ditches they are stuck in in the middle Savannah.
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  >The programmer can decide to do webapps that run atop C Please explain how to make a slippymap[1] in C. For srs, I'm making a hobby project at the moment that needs a dynamic, interactable map on a webpage, and as a long time noscript user it galls me a little to use JS. The only compromise I can come up with is re-hosting the JS libraries I use and ensuring they don't have their own dependencies so that users only need to enable my domain for the site to work. If you can tell me how to do the same thing in C, I'll swap to it immediately. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slippy_Map http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slippy_Map
  - homarp 9y ago
    >Please explain how to make a slippymap[1] in C. The same way Doom has been compiled and run in the browser. https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-and-Demos https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-...
    - Sir_Substance 9y ago
      But emscripten compiles...to javascript. I guess that meets the criteria of "programming for the web but not making github commits in javascript", but it doesn't really solve my problem. Oh well.
      - 9y ago

microcolonel 9y ago

I think you could make the argument that because the C ABI is available in most compiled languages, you do have a choice. Whereas on the web, JavaScript is the ABI.

pjmlp 9y ago
Not really when doing code on UNIX or aiming for portability. There are still systems that lack full C++98 compliant compilers, for example (mostly embedded stuff).