4 ms·

> This is now a debt. This exactly. That's why I always pay cash, incl. tips. A charge on a credit card is essentially a loan from the Credit Card Company at t

> This is now a debt. This exactly. That's why I always pay cash, incl. tips. A charge on a credit card is essentially a loan from the Credit Card Company at the agreed upon interest rate. So I'm not comfortable taking out a loan to pay for my food -- granted you don't pay any interest if you pay your bills in full on time, but still it just feels wrong. I also pay cash because I want the wait staff to get the entire tip amount I leave -- usually generous around 25% to 30% minimum. Because I was told by several waiters (mostly at Indian / Pakistani restaurants here in San Francisco) that if the tip is left on the card, that they never see it ever * . [ * A waiter friend at Dosa on Fillmore told me this is illegal and that I should report it. Who do I report it to? And will they really take action? In a couple of Indian restaurants in downtown, the wait staff doesn't get the cash tip either. 1 waiter friend discouraged me from leaving any tip because they don't get a single penny. I tried to insert some cash in his pocket and he got scared. I think the owners forbid them from taking any cash from customers even if it's tip ]

code_duck 9y ago
What about using a debit card? That's not a loan.
- justboxing 9y ago
  Correct. That's why I explicitly said > A charge on a credit card
  - jrs235 9y ago
    But depending on how the debit card is run (often as a credit card) there are still fees and a cut being taken by Visa or MasterCard... I wonder if the establishment eats all of the transaction costs and gives the full tip amount on receipt to the wait staff or if some pass on some of the transaction cost(s) and take it off the top of the tip (unscrupulous and shady if they do).
  - code_duck 9y ago
    Yes, and then you said you always pay cash for that reason, but didn't mention debit cards as an alternative. The desire to make sure the waitstaff gets your tips still applies.
    - justboxing 9y ago
      Got it. I never use debit cards, for all the reasons that @URSpider94 has stated elsewhere in this thread... Permalink => https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14755538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14755538
samsonradu 9y ago
There is also the option of having a Visa Debit Card and just pay from your own deposit account. Is that uncommon in the US?
- URSpider94 9y ago
  It's not that common in the US, because most financial advisors strongly recommend against it. If someone steals your debit card, they can clean out your bank account. You will probably get the money back, but you will be broke in the mean time. If you pay with a credit card and it gets stolen, the debt is frozen while they clean up the mess. This is because: a. Almost all US merchants take all VISA or MC branded cards, while in Europe many vendors will only take debit cards because of lower fees. b. The USA doesn't have chip-and-PIN, so it's laughably easy to use a stolen bank card. At least now with EMV and signature, someone has to actually go through the trouble of stealing your card instead of just cloning it. But there are still a ton of merchants that are just using mag swipe ...
  - spiralpolitik 9y ago
    Merchants who accept payments using the Mag swipe are now liable for any fraudulent charges. So any hold-outs will quickly switch once they get targeted. I would expect banks to soon start limiting the amount that can be charged via the mag stripe to slowly close this loophole. $100 per transaction should be sufficient for the majority of use cases. Gas stations are currently the major holdouts due to the cost of switching out the terminals on pumps.
  - blacksmith_tb 9y ago
    I would think many, possibly most urban dwellers in the US are using debit cards to pay for food, coffees, etc. And chip-and-pin rollout has been going on for the last two years, most US cardholders now have chipped cards, but maybe half of merchants have updated their POSes to support dipping instead of swiping.
    - URSpider94 9y ago
      That's chip and signature, not chip and PIN. If you get physical possession of someone's card, you can scribble whatever you want on the receipt and you are good to go. Europe uses chip and PIN, where you have to enter a numeric code at the time of each transaction that is used to unlock the card. So, you need PIN and card, the traditional what you have / what you know. A lot of European banks even issue EMV readers that connect to your PC for online shopping and banking.
spiralpolitik 9y ago
I'm sure the IRS would be very interested as most business that do this are typically cooking the books in other ways. State tax boards also.
etcet 9y ago
You can report that kind of thing here: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/howtoreportviolationtobofe.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/howtoreportviolationtobofe.htm
- justboxing 9y ago
  Thanks. I'll file a report today. Too bad I can't report anonymously like you can for DHS violations. Because the owner of the establishment is a very good friend of mine. But I feel obligated to report him as the waiters are also friends of mine and they are just being robbed blind (cos as it is they work for less than minimum wage)
sofaofthedamned 9y ago
Not paying tips to the staff when paid on card is also a thing in the UK, so I avoid these places.It became news a couple of years ago so some companies modified their behaviour, but it is still a big problem.

code_duck 9y ago

What about using a debit card? That's not a loan.

justboxing 9y ago
Correct. That's why I explicitly said > A charge on a credit card
- jrs235 9y ago
  But depending on how the debit card is run (often as a credit card) there are still fees and a cut being taken by Visa or MasterCard... I wonder if the establishment eats all of the transaction costs and gives the full tip amount on receipt to the wait staff or if some pass on some of the transaction cost(s) and take it off the top of the tip (unscrupulous and shady if they do).
- code_duck 9y ago
  Yes, and then you said you always pay cash for that reason, but didn't mention debit cards as an alternative. The desire to make sure the waitstaff gets your tips still applies.
  - justboxing 9y ago
    Got it. I never use debit cards, for all the reasons that @URSpider94 has stated elsewhere in this thread... Permalink => https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14755538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14755538

samsonradu 9y ago

There is also the option of having a Visa Debit Card and just pay from your own deposit account. Is that uncommon in the US?

URSpider94 9y ago
It's not that common in the US, because most financial advisors strongly recommend against it. If someone steals your debit card, they can clean out your bank account. You will probably get the money back, but you will be broke in the mean time. If you pay with a credit card and it gets stolen, the debt is frozen while they clean up the mess. This is because: a. Almost all US merchants take all VISA or MC branded cards, while in Europe many vendors will only take debit cards because of lower fees. b. The USA doesn't have chip-and-PIN, so it's laughably easy to use a stolen bank card. At least now with EMV and signature, someone has to actually go through the trouble of stealing your card instead of just cloning it. But there are still a ton of merchants that are just using mag swipe ...
- spiralpolitik 9y ago
  Merchants who accept payments using the Mag swipe are now liable for any fraudulent charges. So any hold-outs will quickly switch once they get targeted. I would expect banks to soon start limiting the amount that can be charged via the mag stripe to slowly close this loophole. $100 per transaction should be sufficient for the majority of use cases. Gas stations are currently the major holdouts due to the cost of switching out the terminals on pumps.
- blacksmith_tb 9y ago
  I would think many, possibly most urban dwellers in the US are using debit cards to pay for food, coffees, etc. And chip-and-pin rollout has been going on for the last two years, most US cardholders now have chipped cards, but maybe half of merchants have updated their POSes to support dipping instead of swiping.
  - URSpider94 9y ago
    That's chip and signature, not chip and PIN. If you get physical possession of someone's card, you can scribble whatever you want on the receipt and you are good to go. Europe uses chip and PIN, where you have to enter a numeric code at the time of each transaction that is used to unlock the card. So, you need PIN and card, the traditional what you have / what you know. A lot of European banks even issue EMV readers that connect to your PC for online shopping and banking.

spiralpolitik 9y ago

I'm sure the IRS would be very interested as most business that do this are typically cooking the books in other ways. State tax boards also.

etcet 9y ago

You can report that kind of thing here: https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/howtoreportviolationtobofe.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/howtoreportviolationtobofe.htm

justboxing 9y ago
Thanks. I'll file a report today. Too bad I can't report anonymously like you can for DHS violations. Because the owner of the establishment is a very good friend of mine. But I feel obligated to report him as the waiters are also friends of mine and they are just being robbed blind (cos as it is they work for less than minimum wage)

sofaofthedamned 9y ago

Not paying tips to the staff when paid on card is also a thing in the UK, so I avoid these places.It became news a couple of years ago so some companies modified their behaviour, but it is still a big problem.