6 ms·

I'm curious how this would work in a sit-down resturant, if the server doesn't explicitly state this (or require payment) prior to ordering. Once the food is o

by phil21 9y ago

I'm curious how this would work in a sit-down resturant, if the server doesn't explicitly state this (or require payment) prior to ordering. Once the food is ordered and consumed, you are then presented with a check. This is now a debt. Vendors certainly are not required to accept cash during a transaction, but you are absolutely required to accept cash if someone is settling a debt. Might be an interesting case at some point. This is simply ignoring Visa trying to enact their merchant discount tax on every transaction within the US economy though. This road (lack of anonymous and free means of payment) ends in tears.

scotu 9y ago
I don't think it's a problem, the first time that happens is a mess, the second one it's written on the menu. Problem solved
- scott_s 9y ago
  Writing on a menu does not prevent it from happening, in either good faith (customer didn't see it) or bad faith (customer knows it, and is trying to see if they can get a free meal) situations.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Leaving cash on the table at a sit-down restaurant to pay for a meal isn't “trying to get a free meal.”
    - scott_s 9y ago
      I agree. I was imagining a situation where the (bad faith) customer insists on using cash, the restaurant does not have the infrastructure for cash, and as a result (for whatever reason) the customer ends up not paying. Leaving cash on the table would be a good faith customer.
- Spivak 9y ago
  I don't think the courts would agree. Unless you pay for your food up front you've still acquired debt which must be payable in dollars.
- rsj_hn 9y ago
  It's not solved at all. You eat your meal. Now you owe a debt. Pay with cash. The whole point of legal tender laws is that you can always settle a debt with cash, regardless of what is says on the menu. What the restaurant would need to do is ask you to pay up front with visa, or to provide your visa prior to ordering so that they could charge you. That would solve the problem if they charged you before you ate the meal, but if they try to charge your visa after the meal and the charge is declined, you can still settle with cash. But somehow, with the tax avoidance issues with tips, they would either not do this or ask for the tip in cash.
  - ue_ 9y ago
    I don't understand this. Surely it's up to me to accept whatever I want? If I tell you in advance that I want 5 apples in return for my 10 potatoes, that's all I'll accept. I don't want money, I want apples. Why is this any different? Can you really "always settle a debt with cash"? Even if you are told beforehand that the deal isn't for cash? Would this mean that I am effectively forced to accept cash for rendering goods or services?
    - phil21 9y ago
      > Surely it's up to me to accept whatever I want? It is, up until the point you turn it into a debt. This means you can require trading apples in return for potatoes, but you have to do the transaction up-front. So if you ran a food stand and rejected any cash transactions at the point of sale, you are completely within the law. You could not give your apples to your neighbor in the spring, and force them to settle up via potatoes in the fall. If they wanted to, they could pay you the equivalent of their potato debt in cash. And yes, if someone ends up owing you money and offers you cash to settle - you must accept it, with very few exceptions. All debts public and private actually does have some serious teeth after all. A long time ago I had to settle a bet on this topic, and it was more extensive than this. The tldr; is that at no time in US history have you been forced to take US currency, with the exception of debts. It actually does make sense. What happens in the event your neighbors potato harvest fails and they get out of the business? If you sued them in court, the court would award you the market value of the replacement cost of the potatoes you did not receive (most likely). And thus they would be settling up via cash either way.
EGreg 9y ago
Dollars are legal tender for all debts, public and private. It means you can walk out without paying and if they sue you, they'll just get the dollars anyway. To be honest, no one would spend money to sue you for $30 anyway. However, you won't be able to go to that restauran again. Also, I believe even if they WARN YOU in advance that they don't take cash, you could STILL go and eat and then offer cash! Because LEGAL TENDER. Estoppel is only a defense, can't be used to prosecute someone and get them to pay by VISA.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- refurb 9y ago
  There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.[1] [1]http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/watchdog/2014/12/24/ask-watchdog-can-business-refuse-cash/20883777/ http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/watchdog/2014/12/24/as...
  - URSpider94 9y ago
    From the article: "What about debts already incurred, such as a restaurant bill presented after the meal is eaten, a lawsuit judgment or an annual tax bill? For those debts, a plain reading of the Coinage Act suggests that any kind of legal tender, whether coins or bills, must be accepted."
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  > It means you can walk out without paying and if they sue you, they'll just get the dollars anyway. I'm pretty sure dine-and-dashers don't just get sued - they get arrested. I'm wary of people offering legal advice and interpretation without some credentials.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
justboxing 9y ago
> This is now a debt. This exactly. That's why I always pay cash, incl. tips. A charge on a credit card is essentially a loan from the Credit Card Company at the agreed upon interest rate. So I'm not comfortable taking out a loan to pay for my food -- granted you don't pay any interest if you pay your bills in full on time, but still it just feels wrong. I also pay cash because I want the wait staff to get the entire tip amount I leave -- usually generous around 25% to 30% minimum. Because I was told by several waiters (mostly at Indian / Pakistani restaurants here in San Francisco) that if the tip is left on the card, that they never see it ever * . [ * A waiter friend at Dosa on Fillmore told me this is illegal and that I should report it. Who do I report it to? And will they really take action? In a couple of Indian restaurants in downtown, the wait staff doesn't get the cash tip either. 1 waiter friend discouraged me from leaving any tip because they don't get a single penny. I tried to insert some cash in his pocket and he got scared. I think the owners forbid them from taking any cash from customers even if it's tip ]
- code_duck 9y ago
  What about using a debit card? That's not a loan.
  - justboxing 9y ago
    Correct. That's why I explicitly said > A charge on a credit card
    - jrs235 9y ago
      But depending on how the debit card is run (often as a credit card) there are still fees and a cut being taken by Visa or MasterCard... I wonder if the establishment eats all of the transaction costs and gives the full tip amount on receipt to the wait staff or if some pass on some of the transaction cost(s) and take it off the top of the tip (unscrupulous and shady if they do).
    - code_duck 9y ago
      Yes, and then you said you always pay cash for that reason, but didn't mention debit cards as an alternative. The desire to make sure the waitstaff gets your tips still applies.
dragonwriter 9y ago
Even with notice, the same logic applies, and, anyway, what are they going to do when you leave cash on the table? Not deposit it and treat the person who paid it like a dine-and-dasher? On the fast-food and fast-casual end with payment up front, OTOH, this might work in theory, but that's the segment that can least afford to exclude the unbanked, so the payment is going to have to be significant.
prostoalex 9y ago
> if the server doesn't explicitly state this (or require payment) prior to ordering. Seems like asking for an immediate credit card pre-auth wouldn't be that much of a shift in cultural norms.
- spiralpolitik 9y ago
  Gas stations already ask cash users to pre-pay and pre-auth credit/debit cards so the shift would be tiny.
gist 9y ago
There is almost certainly nothing legally to prevent them from taking cash. The idea is simply (probably) to get them to say they only take credit cards. Obviously they will take cash if the person only has cash and insists. They post that they don't accept cash and if someone doesn't see that they will take cash and Visa will be fine with it (where 'fine' means they will look the other way). It's the golden rule. He who has the gold rules. [1] The one with the balance of power wins. [1] Let's say in the normal course of business you are owed $5000 and have been trying to get a deadbeat customer to pay for a year. It's obvious that you don't want to get paid in pennies. In this case the customer says 'I will pay you but it has to be pennies'. What would anyone do? Accept the pennies.

by phil21 9y ago

scotu 9y ago

I don't think it's a problem, the first time that happens is a mess, the second one it's written on the menu. Problem solved

scott_s 9y ago
Writing on a menu does not prevent it from happening, in either good faith (customer didn't see it) or bad faith (customer knows it, and is trying to see if they can get a free meal) situations.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Leaving cash on the table at a sit-down restaurant to pay for a meal isn't “trying to get a free meal.”
  - scott_s 9y ago
    I agree. I was imagining a situation where the (bad faith) customer insists on using cash, the restaurant does not have the infrastructure for cash, and as a result (for whatever reason) the customer ends up not paying. Leaving cash on the table would be a good faith customer.
Spivak 9y ago
I don't think the courts would agree. Unless you pay for your food up front you've still acquired debt which must be payable in dollars.
rsj_hn 9y ago
It's not solved at all. You eat your meal. Now you owe a debt. Pay with cash. The whole point of legal tender laws is that you can always settle a debt with cash, regardless of what is says on the menu. What the restaurant would need to do is ask you to pay up front with visa, or to provide your visa prior to ordering so that they could charge you. That would solve the problem if they charged you before you ate the meal, but if they try to charge your visa after the meal and the charge is declined, you can still settle with cash. But somehow, with the tax avoidance issues with tips, they would either not do this or ask for the tip in cash.
- ue_ 9y ago
  I don't understand this. Surely it's up to me to accept whatever I want? If I tell you in advance that I want 5 apples in return for my 10 potatoes, that's all I'll accept. I don't want money, I want apples. Why is this any different? Can you really "always settle a debt with cash"? Even if you are told beforehand that the deal isn't for cash? Would this mean that I am effectively forced to accept cash for rendering goods or services?
  - phil21 9y ago
    > Surely it's up to me to accept whatever I want? It is, up until the point you turn it into a debt. This means you can require trading apples in return for potatoes, but you have to do the transaction up-front. So if you ran a food stand and rejected any cash transactions at the point of sale, you are completely within the law. You could not give your apples to your neighbor in the spring, and force them to settle up via potatoes in the fall. If they wanted to, they could pay you the equivalent of their potato debt in cash. And yes, if someone ends up owing you money and offers you cash to settle - you must accept it, with very few exceptions. All debts public and private actually does have some serious teeth after all. A long time ago I had to settle a bet on this topic, and it was more extensive than this. The tldr; is that at no time in US history have you been forced to take US currency, with the exception of debts. It actually does make sense. What happens in the event your neighbors potato harvest fails and they get out of the business? If you sued them in court, the court would award you the market value of the replacement cost of the potatoes you did not receive (most likely). And thus they would be settling up via cash either way.

EGreg 9y ago

Dollars are legal tender for all debts, public and private. It means you can walk out without paying and if they sue you, they'll just get the dollars anyway. To be honest, no one would spend money to sue you for $30 anyway. However, you won't be able to go to that restauran again. Also, I believe even if they WARN YOU in advance that they don't take cash, you could STILL go and eat and then offer cash! Because LEGAL TENDER. Estoppel is only a defense, can't be used to prosecute someone and get them to pay by VISA.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
refurb 9y ago
There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.[1] [1]http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/watchdog/2014/12/24/ask-watchdog-can-business-refuse-cash/20883777/ http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/watchdog/2014/12/24/as...
- URSpider94 9y ago
  From the article: "What about debts already incurred, such as a restaurant bill presented after the meal is eaten, a lawsuit judgment or an annual tax bill? For those debts, a plain reading of the Coinage Act suggests that any kind of legal tender, whether coins or bills, must be accepted."
pavel_lishin 9y ago
> It means you can walk out without paying and if they sue you, they'll just get the dollars anyway. I'm pretty sure dine-and-dashers don't just get sued - they get arrested. I'm wary of people offering legal advice and interpretation without some credentials.
- raverbashing 9y ago

justboxing 9y ago

> This is now a debt. This exactly. That's why I always pay cash, incl. tips. A charge on a credit card is essentially a loan from the Credit Card Company at the agreed upon interest rate. So I'm not comfortable taking out a loan to pay for my food -- granted you don't pay any interest if you pay your bills in full on time, but still it just feels wrong. I also pay cash because I want the wait staff to get the entire tip amount I leave -- usually generous around 25% to 30% minimum. Because I was told by several waiters (mostly at Indian / Pakistani restaurants here in San Francisco) that if the tip is left on the card, that they never see it ever * . [ * A waiter friend at Dosa on Fillmore told me this is illegal and that I should report it. Who do I report it to? And will they really take action? In a couple of Indian restaurants in downtown, the wait staff doesn't get the cash tip either. 1 waiter friend discouraged me from leaving any tip because they don't get a single penny. I tried to insert some cash in his pocket and he got scared. I think the owners forbid them from taking any cash from customers even if it's tip ]

code_duck 9y ago
What about using a debit card? That's not a loan.
- justboxing 9y ago
  Correct. That's why I explicitly said > A charge on a credit card
  - jrs235 9y ago
    But depending on how the debit card is run (often as a credit card) there are still fees and a cut being taken by Visa or MasterCard... I wonder if the establishment eats all of the transaction costs and gives the full tip amount on receipt to the wait staff or if some pass on some of the transaction cost(s) and take it off the top of the tip (unscrupulous and shady if they do).
  - code_duck 9y ago
    Yes, and then you said you always pay cash for that reason, but didn't mention debit cards as an alternative. The desire to make sure the waitstaff gets your tips still applies.

dragonwriter 9y ago

Even with notice, the same logic applies, and, anyway, what are they going to do when you leave cash on the table? Not deposit it and treat the person who paid it like a dine-and-dasher? On the fast-food and fast-casual end with payment up front, OTOH, this might work in theory, but that's the segment that can least afford to exclude the unbanked, so the payment is going to have to be significant.

prostoalex 9y ago

> if the server doesn't explicitly state this (or require payment) prior to ordering. Seems like asking for an immediate credit card pre-auth wouldn't be that much of a shift in cultural norms.

spiralpolitik 9y ago
Gas stations already ask cash users to pre-pay and pre-auth credit/debit cards so the shift would be tiny.

gist 9y ago

There is almost certainly nothing legally to prevent them from taking cash. The idea is simply (probably) to get them to say they only take credit cards. Obviously they will take cash if the person only has cash and insists. They post that they don't accept cash and if someone doesn't see that they will take cash and Visa will be fine with it (where 'fine' means they will look the other way). It's the golden rule. He who has the gold rules. [1] The one with the balance of power wins. [1] Let's say in the normal course of business you are owed $5000 and have been trying to get a deadbeat customer to pay for a year. It's obvious that you don't want to get paid in pennies. In this case the customer says 'I will pay you but it has to be pennies'. What would anyone do? Accept the pennies.