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That isn't how a blockchain works. The decentralization comes with penalties, such as if 51% of the participants say something is true it is. You have to prov

That isn't how a blockchain works. The decentralization comes with penalties, such as if 51% of the participants say something is true it is. You have to provide some way to insure that doesn't happen due to a malicious attack. Proof of work systems do that buy making the cost and resources to achieve 51% astronomical.

mikeash 9y ago
I don't understand what you think I'm getting wrong here. All of what you say seems completely consistent with the point I'm making.
UncleMeat 9y ago
Yes we know. We are questioning whether the orders of magnitude increase in energy usage is worth the decentralization.
- Jach 9y ago
  Unless there is a world government that dictates "no" I don't see why arguing with the market that clearly is saying "yes" is worthwhile. Even if externalities like "damage to the planet" were properly priced in by each country and energy source chain that still wouldn't guarantee the energy usage would go down, it just might be slightly less profitable. (From my standpoint there's currently no such thing as energy waste through human activity since the vast, vast majority of local energy in our solar system is not being used for any purpose, "wasteful" purpose or no.)
  - mikeash 9y ago
    The whole idea is that if the price of electricity reflects its full cost, including externalities, then you'll no longer waste it. If people keep mining bitcoins in that environment, then it's because bitcoin mining actually provides more value than the cost of the energy it consumes. If the fact that we're eight light-minutes away from a zero-maintenance 400YW fusion reactor makes it hard for you to consider human energy usage to be waste, just think of it in terms of CO2 pointlessly added to the atmosphere instead.
    - Jach 9y ago
      It doesn't help to think of CO2 pointlessly added either since I don't think mining is pointless. Now if they kept their existing setup but tweaked it so they still do all the computation but never submit any successful blocks, or just kept buying hardware and setting it on fire, then I guess I'd agree that seems pointless and wasteful (even if inconsequential compared to the giant ball of fire that's currently severely underutilized), but only because it's entirely and obviously unprofitable. Since "waste" by other metrics is so subjective I try to only consider the best proxy I can think of, which is cost and benefit figures. I don't put efficient LEDs in my house because I buy into the environmentalist argument of trying to live while using less energy personally, or live while "wasting" as little as I can, but because it saves me a significant amount of money. Similarly I don't stress out about "waste" if I go to sleep but forgot to turn some lights off because although I still have to pay for it, it's not very much. Even when the cost is high, like buying a lemon car, I don't feel bad about waste having to get rid of it and get a different one but about the extra cost. The only way to affect miners is probably with economic consequences, rather than environmentalist philosophy. Maybe less CO2 would be added if the mining costs were higher, maybe not, and in any case I still have no idea how to price in the rise in CO2 due to a ton of SHA hardware cranking away, independent of whether it's powered by solar panels or water or coal. You'd have to have some sort of sensor on each unit (and the units involved in its manufacture -- put one over my mouth while you're at it) to capture its CO2 output at each moment of time (since it might not always be on due to repairs or whatever), and then you'd have to price the cost of each bit of output somehow, and who should pay it at what times.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        To price the CO2 emissions of miners, you don't try to track the miners themselves. You tax CO2 emissions at the source (i.e. the coal-fired power plant the miners are plugged in to), and then the miners pay for it through higher electricity costs. If they use solar or wind instead then their electricity prices wouldn't reflect that tax. If they use a mix, the price will partially reflect that tax. If you can price in the consequences at their origin then the rest just works itself out, whether it's LEDs or cars or bitcoin mining.

mikeash 9y ago

I don't understand what you think I'm getting wrong here. All of what you say seems completely consistent with the point I'm making.

UncleMeat 9y ago

Yes we know. We are questioning whether the orders of magnitude increase in energy usage is worth the decentralization.

Jach 9y ago
Unless there is a world government that dictates "no" I don't see why arguing with the market that clearly is saying "yes" is worthwhile. Even if externalities like "damage to the planet" were properly priced in by each country and energy source chain that still wouldn't guarantee the energy usage would go down, it just might be slightly less profitable. (From my standpoint there's currently no such thing as energy waste through human activity since the vast, vast majority of local energy in our solar system is not being used for any purpose, "wasteful" purpose or no.)
- mikeash 9y ago
  The whole idea is that if the price of electricity reflects its full cost, including externalities, then you'll no longer waste it. If people keep mining bitcoins in that environment, then it's because bitcoin mining actually provides more value than the cost of the energy it consumes. If the fact that we're eight light-minutes away from a zero-maintenance 400YW fusion reactor makes it hard for you to consider human energy usage to be waste, just think of it in terms of CO2 pointlessly added to the atmosphere instead.
  - Jach 9y ago
    It doesn't help to think of CO2 pointlessly added either since I don't think mining is pointless. Now if they kept their existing setup but tweaked it so they still do all the computation but never submit any successful blocks, or just kept buying hardware and setting it on fire, then I guess I'd agree that seems pointless and wasteful (even if inconsequential compared to the giant ball of fire that's currently severely underutilized), but only because it's entirely and obviously unprofitable. Since "waste" by other metrics is so subjective I try to only consider the best proxy I can think of, which is cost and benefit figures. I don't put efficient LEDs in my house because I buy into the environmentalist argument of trying to live while using less energy personally, or live while "wasting" as little as I can, but because it saves me a significant amount of money. Similarly I don't stress out about "waste" if I go to sleep but forgot to turn some lights off because although I still have to pay for it, it's not very much. Even when the cost is high, like buying a lemon car, I don't feel bad about waste having to get rid of it and get a different one but about the extra cost. The only way to affect miners is probably with economic consequences, rather than environmentalist philosophy. Maybe less CO2 would be added if the mining costs were higher, maybe not, and in any case I still have no idea how to price in the rise in CO2 due to a ton of SHA hardware cranking away, independent of whether it's powered by solar panels or water or coal. You'd have to have some sort of sensor on each unit (and the units involved in its manufacture -- put one over my mouth while you're at it) to capture its CO2 output at each moment of time (since it might not always be on due to repairs or whatever), and then you'd have to price the cost of each bit of output somehow, and who should pay it at what times.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      To price the CO2 emissions of miners, you don't try to track the miners themselves. You tax CO2 emissions at the source (i.e. the coal-fired power plant the miners are plugged in to), and then the miners pay for it through higher electricity costs. If they use solar or wind instead then their electricity prices wouldn't reflect that tax. If they use a mix, the price will partially reflect that tax. If you can price in the consequences at their origin then the rest just works itself out, whether it's LEDs or cars or bitcoin mining.