5 ms·

As a rule of thumb, the notable product manufacturers like Apple, Samsung, Nokia, Microsoft, Amazon, etc, have extremely capable RF design teams. Your run of t

by Duhck 9y ago

As a rule of thumb, the notable product manufacturers like Apple, Samsung, Nokia, Microsoft, Amazon, etc, have extremely capable RF design teams. Your run of the mill bluetooth headset, mouse, or keyboard likely does not spend the time on the RF design beyond "does it work".

Paul_S 9y ago
"Run of the mill bluetooth headset, mouse, or keyboard" manufactures don't make Bluetooth chips, they buy them. What part of the bt stack do you work on? You're saying nonsensical things, wifi does not do AFH. I didn't know apple made bluetooth chips? You don't even mention Nordic or TI, also not all big bt companies are in America.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  > You're saying nonsensical things, wifi does not do AFH. Many, many Wi-Fi implementations are capable of frequency hop, including my own at home.
  - Paul_S 9y ago
    That is not possible, it's not part of the spec. Maybe what you're thinking of is the wifi hotspot selecting the channel automatically when setting up a network based on the neighbours it can see. Nothing to do with frequency hopping. AFH happens between packets and maps out bad channels. Wifi does not do that, never has and never will because it's governed by different rules.
    - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
      Nope, I’m thinking of when I transparently switch channels when my neighbor comes home and starts blowing up his own network. I’m aware it’s not part of the specification, which I’m sure you’re aware doesn’t mean anything except that it’s not part of the specification.
      - Paul_S 9y ago
        I don't know what you're thinking of but no, you can't have that because if you had this magical hotspot your network card in your iThing would not know what to do because wifi does not do frequency hopping. Every time your hotspot changes channels it disconnects all your devices.
        jsmthrowaway 9y ago
        You're forgetting devices with two bands, and assuming a lot about my devices (and competence). I know my network and its behavior, and I'm not just spewing hot air here.
        Paul_S 9y ago
        You are arguing with me about something that is easy to verify in 10 seconds by looking at the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11 (it does mention a frequency hopping physical layer but that was part of the obsolete predecessor from 1997, the modern spec uses OFDM so unless all your equipment is from the last century you're not using frequency hopping)
        logicallee 9y ago
        Paul_S, could you be a bit more civil to jsmthrowaway so as to elicit what he does know and how he knows it? jsmthrowaway can you give more information about your setup and what the devices do? No need for a heated argument. This whole thread is quite instructive!
        reitanqild 9y ago
        Why was this downvoted? (No I'm not complaining about being downvoted - this isn't even my comment - just trying to learn.
        drkstr 9y ago
    - oneplane 9y ago
      Just because a spec doesn't have it doesn't mean it can't be done. At the same time, implementing something that makes you out-of-spec (like Zero Handoff with a virtual floating BSSID between multiple orchestrated AP's -- totally unsupported and not in the spec) and designing it the right way can sometimes mean that a function you thought could not be there is there anyway. What he is probably referring to isn't frequency hopping, because what it sounds like and that it actually refers to means different things to different people. For someone who is not a RF engineer, hopping might simply mean "an AP that has multiple radios that uses one to scan the 802.11 2.4Ghz space to see what channels have the least utilization, and then restarts the other radios on a that channel, possibly forcing all clients to lose their connection as if out-of-range and reconnecting again on the new channel as they find it". This, of course, has nothing to do with RF frequency hopping, but if you don't actually know anything about RF, you won't know what hopping means either, and just imagine that what your router with built in AP is doing must therefore be that 'hopping'.
      - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
        > For someone who is not a RF engineer, hopping might simply mean "an AP that has multiple radios that uses one to scan the 802.11 2.4Ghz space to see what channels have the least utilization, and then restarts the other radios on a that channel, possibly forcing all clients to lose their connection as if out-of-range and reconnecting again on the new channel as they find it". Bingo, except add 5 GHz (and soon, 900 MHz), too.
- Duhck 9y ago
  I never said the chip manufacturers were device manufacturers, perhaps you read that incorrectly? The companies that deploy a TI, Nordic, Broadcom chipset are subject to the scrutiny I just mentioned. The chipset manufacturers offer reference designs but generally you need a custom matching circuit and a complex RF design to do it correctly. That's where most manufacturers skimp out because its generally "good enough" As for WiFi, it does not frequency hop but is capable of "auto" selecting a channel on boot (generally).
  - Paul_S 9y ago
    Yes, I clearly misread that.
- strobot 9y ago
  I didn't know apple made bluetooth chips? W1 https://9to5mac.com/guides/w1/ https://9to5mac.com/guides/w1/
mkl 9y ago
Anecdotally, I have a Microsoft Surface Pro 4 and a Microsoft Surface Keyboard (Bluetooth), and it is incredibly unreliable. Pressing a key after a period of inactivity will select an action from: 1. Do absolutely nothing. 2. Completely lock up the computer so it needs a hard reset. 3. Completely lock up the computer for a few seconds, then work. 4. Start working, but ignore ~40% of the key presses. 5. Swallow the first keypress or two, then work. 6. Actually function like a keyboard. If Microsoft has a good RF team, I'd hate to see what worse teams do. I wish there was a USB version of this keyboard, or at least a wireless dongle version (like Microsoft's cheaper keyboards).
- kalleboo 9y ago
  Those sound like software/firmware problems, not RF problems. I think it's pretty well-known that Microsoft has an absolutely dreadful software team.

by Duhck 9y ago

Paul_S 9y ago

"Run of the mill bluetooth headset, mouse, or keyboard" manufactures don't make Bluetooth chips, they buy them. What part of the bt stack do you work on? You're saying nonsensical things, wifi does not do AFH. I didn't know apple made bluetooth chips? You don't even mention Nordic or TI, also not all big bt companies are in America.

jsmthrowaway 9y ago
> You're saying nonsensical things, wifi does not do AFH. Many, many Wi-Fi implementations are capable of frequency hop, including my own at home.
- Paul_S 9y ago
  That is not possible, it's not part of the spec. Maybe what you're thinking of is the wifi hotspot selecting the channel automatically when setting up a network based on the neighbours it can see. Nothing to do with frequency hopping. AFH happens between packets and maps out bad channels. Wifi does not do that, never has and never will because it's governed by different rules.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    Nope, I’m thinking of when I transparently switch channels when my neighbor comes home and starts blowing up his own network. I’m aware it’s not part of the specification, which I’m sure you’re aware doesn’t mean anything except that it’s not part of the specification.
    - Paul_S 9y ago
      I don't know what you're thinking of but no, you can't have that because if you had this magical hotspot your network card in your iThing would not know what to do because wifi does not do frequency hopping. Every time your hotspot changes channels it disconnects all your devices.
      - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
        You're forgetting devices with two bands, and assuming a lot about my devices (and competence). I know my network and its behavior, and I'm not just spewing hot air here.
        Paul_S 9y ago
        You are arguing with me about something that is easy to verify in 10 seconds by looking at the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11 (it does mention a frequency hopping physical layer but that was part of the obsolete predecessor from 1997, the modern spec uses OFDM so unless all your equipment is from the last century you're not using frequency hopping)
        logicallee 9y ago
        Paul_S, could you be a bit more civil to jsmthrowaway so as to elicit what he does know and how he knows it? jsmthrowaway can you give more information about your setup and what the devices do? No need for a heated argument. This whole thread is quite instructive!
        reitanqild 9y ago
        Why was this downvoted? (No I'm not complaining about being downvoted - this isn't even my comment - just trying to learn.
        drkstr 9y ago
  - oneplane 9y ago
    Just because a spec doesn't have it doesn't mean it can't be done. At the same time, implementing something that makes you out-of-spec (like Zero Handoff with a virtual floating BSSID between multiple orchestrated AP's -- totally unsupported and not in the spec) and designing it the right way can sometimes mean that a function you thought could not be there is there anyway. What he is probably referring to isn't frequency hopping, because what it sounds like and that it actually refers to means different things to different people. For someone who is not a RF engineer, hopping might simply mean "an AP that has multiple radios that uses one to scan the 802.11 2.4Ghz space to see what channels have the least utilization, and then restarts the other radios on a that channel, possibly forcing all clients to lose their connection as if out-of-range and reconnecting again on the new channel as they find it". This, of course, has nothing to do with RF frequency hopping, but if you don't actually know anything about RF, you won't know what hopping means either, and just imagine that what your router with built in AP is doing must therefore be that 'hopping'.
    - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
      > For someone who is not a RF engineer, hopping might simply mean "an AP that has multiple radios that uses one to scan the 802.11 2.4Ghz space to see what channels have the least utilization, and then restarts the other radios on a that channel, possibly forcing all clients to lose their connection as if out-of-range and reconnecting again on the new channel as they find it". Bingo, except add 5 GHz (and soon, 900 MHz), too.
Duhck 9y ago
I never said the chip manufacturers were device manufacturers, perhaps you read that incorrectly? The companies that deploy a TI, Nordic, Broadcom chipset are subject to the scrutiny I just mentioned. The chipset manufacturers offer reference designs but generally you need a custom matching circuit and a complex RF design to do it correctly. That's where most manufacturers skimp out because its generally "good enough" As for WiFi, it does not frequency hop but is capable of "auto" selecting a channel on boot (generally).
- Paul_S 9y ago
  Yes, I clearly misread that.
strobot 9y ago
I didn't know apple made bluetooth chips? W1 https://9to5mac.com/guides/w1/ https://9to5mac.com/guides/w1/

mkl 9y ago

Anecdotally, I have a Microsoft Surface Pro 4 and a Microsoft Surface Keyboard (Bluetooth), and it is incredibly unreliable. Pressing a key after a period of inactivity will select an action from: 1. Do absolutely nothing. 2. Completely lock up the computer so it needs a hard reset. 3. Completely lock up the computer for a few seconds, then work. 4. Start working, but ignore ~40% of the key presses. 5. Swallow the first keypress or two, then work. 6. Actually function like a keyboard. If Microsoft has a good RF team, I'd hate to see what worse teams do. I wish there was a USB version of this keyboard, or at least a wireless dongle version (like Microsoft's cheaper keyboards).

kalleboo 9y ago
Those sound like software/firmware problems, not RF problems. I think it's pretty well-known that Microsoft has an absolutely dreadful software team.