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Dutch app gives elderly pedestrians extra crossing time at traffic lights
- throwaway2016a 9y agoInterestingly, I often have the opposite problem here. The walk light turns on and I'm done crossing the street a good 45+ seconds before it actually lets traffic go. It would be nice if it somehow knew no one else was waiting to cross and let traffic go. Of (not that I would ever do this) someone sees an opportunity and jay-walks but the walk light still turns on because they also pressed the button.
- drewg123 9y agoWhen I would walk to/from work in Mountain View, I'd often jaywalk because it would be far less disturbing to traffic than crossing a crosswalk.
- bmsleight_ 9y agoRe: Jay-walks then crossing. Some crossing and junctions skip the pedestrian stage when there is no one waiting even if the button was previously pressed. They have crossed in a gap, demand/button cancelled by detector. The problem is curtailing the "Walk light" is that no detector is 100% reliable, so (say) if a visually impaired pedestrian is crossing and not detected, it raises as big safety concern.
- Malic 9y agoIt's not quite the same thing but I can verify that certain Scandinavian countries really expect you to "get a move on" when crossing the street. There isn't enough time to walk across crosswalks in Denmark, for example, if you don't have some spring in your step.
- Fifer82 9y agoIs that not OK? In the UK I get the impression you can trundle along at any speed and assume the people in the cars have the decency not to mow you down until their lane is free even if the green man is red now. Jay-Walking though is crazy as a law. I prefer NOT to use traffic lights where traffic allows.
- bmsleight_ 9y agoWell in UK there is no Jay-Walking Law (Pedestrians have right of way). The crossing time is set at 1.2 m/s, to complete the crossing from the end of the Green.
- bad_hairpiece 9y agoThat's 2.68 mph in freedom units
- 0xffff2 9y ago>Well in UK there is no Jay-Walking Law (Pedestrians have right of way). In California at least, pedestrians have the right of way, but Jay-walking is still illegal.
- DanBC 9y ago> In the UK I get the impression you can trundle along at any speed the regulation is that peds must not delay on crossings. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/2400/part/I/crossheading/movement-of-traffic-at-crossings/made http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/2400/part/I/crosshea... > 19. No pedestrian shall remain on the carriageway within the limits of a crossing longer than is necessary for that pedestrian to pass over the crossing with reasonable despatch. (I'm not sure this is latest version)
- bmsleight_ 9y agoThat covers standalone pedestrians crossing, junctions is TSRGD. But same principal pedestrians must reasonably cross, but Green -> Only Go if the way ahead is clear..
- ascorbic 9y agoIn the UK there are mostly puffin crossings, which sense when pedestrians are still crossing and hold the lights for them.
- kalleboo 9y agoIn Sweden, at some point they removed the "blinking" phase near the end of the crosswalk green light without making the green phase any longer. This is to avoid people see it go blinking and then running across the crosswalk. This means it feels like you don't have enough time to walk across before it goes red (even though the cars still have to wait)
- anigbrowl 9y agoThis is wonderful. Light timing where I live is appalling and while I'm a fast walker it must be terrifying for elderly/disabled people. Quite a lot of American city infrastructure is really hostile to pedestrians.
- dublinben 9y agoEven better would be to just fix the light timing, and make the roads safer for all pedestrians, not just those using this app. This is a blatant band-aid on a more significant problem.
- bmsleight_ 9y agoFixing the light timing is harder than it sounds. Too long for pedestrians (When there is no demand and lots of wasted time), encourages drivers to not fully comply with the signals. At least with this app, it minimised the extended crossing time to only when needed. The drivers can then see the mobility impaired pedestrian crossing and confidence remains with the timing.
- DanBC 9y agoUse a puffin crossing. http://www.driving-school-beckenham.co.uk/pedestriancrossings.html http://www.driving-school-beckenham.co.uk/pedestriancrossing...
- bmsleight_ 9y agoPuffins are good, but detection is always hard and central co-ordination is reduced. How about Countdown at junction or at standalone PedX ? http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4572.html http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/4572.html
- laythea 9y agoIf the app has the ability to mess with the traffic light timings, what is stopping hackers?
- fredley 9y agoHopefully the publicly exposed API call into the traffic light network is "I am old, at [x]", not "Set traffic light time to [n] at [x]". Hopefully.
- laythea 9y agoI'm sure at least as much effort will be placed, as that of automation in cars :)
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago"ISIS recruits disabled people to attack transportation infrastructure" would make some good clickbait.
- eigenmeister 9y agoI can't speak to this design specifically, but in the US, an app like this should _request_ a time slot for crossing, which would get processed by the timing controller. An attacker could use long range bluetooth antennas to pair at a distance, and request for the next 3 intersections, the high tech equivalent of pushing all the buttons in the elevator.
- bmsleight_ 9y agoFrom an UK perspective, their crossing are way to wide. If you have a shorter crossing, the crossing is less of a factor, (also shorter total cycle times). The problem, is that you holding up all the other traffic for one pedestrians. Get the crossing length correct, have the elderly person cross at the start of the green then the time is sufficient. Also changing the timing as one junction intermittently makes the coordination between set of traffic signals harder and can be big disbelief. Notwithstanding, the wide junctions allow more space for cyclists. <Disclaimer>: Dynniq sometime customer sand once-upon-a-time subcontractor </Disclaimer>
- devindotcom 9y agoConsiderably easier to do this than rebuild the cities with narrower streets, though. If only you could do cement with a responsive layout...
- bmsleight_ 9y agoYou can split the crossing, so that the pedestrian does not have to cross the Northbound and Southbound at the same time.
- sergers 9y agoWe have that here but not everywhere. There is a stop at the median (which would require median) for 4+ lanes. U have to push the button again in the middle. Also have some that activate the whole crosswalk, but u can stop at middle of u think u don't have enough time, can push button for the remainder of trip What I hate more than slow people, fast people and people on bicycles. I cringe each time someone decides to run across when everyone is already focused on the people already walking at normal pace to exit the crosswalk. Super dangerous. I have clipped a guy on a bicycle(just bumped rear tire, hardly any damage and cyclist was fine), and almost hit 2 kids and adult ( all different instances)
- bmsleight_ 9y ago
- Rjevski 9y agoI wonder how they're gonna deal with abuse. What's stopping an idiot from flooding every single light with requests and making them slower than default, disrupting the entire traffic? Why couldn't it be a physical button on the traffic light itself instead of an app? Seems easier to use and would limit abuse to a single location at a time.
- bmsleight_ 9y agoSimilar apps I seen, only connect via bluetooth to light not general internet. Making flooding much harder.
- xkcd-sucks 9y agoOld people's tech-using skills and Bluetooth's reliability... a match made in heaven
- bmsleight_ 9y agoMaybe that why only 10 people used it. <quote>Most potential users are elderly and often wary of relying on unfamiliar technology. “We had to approach them one-on-one and show them how the app worked on their phones. Once we did that they were keen to get involved, but the barrier was very high. We held a presentation and put an advert in a local newspaper with a circulation of 2,000 and 10 people came forward.”</quote>
- chipperyman573 9y ago10 people responding to an ad seen by 2000 is actually a decent success rate. Print ads aren't very good for anything other than keeping the company in the front of the reader's mind. They're great for companies like big chains ("Next time you want fast food, come check out the new BigMac for just $x.xx"), but not for people trying to elicit specific actions immediately ("Download this app now for increased walk times")
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- romanpoet 9y agoThis has been done in Singapore for years. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10108869359209909&set=a.698263527199.2476357.6803277&type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10108869359209909&se...
- netvarun 9y agoSingaporean here. Wow, I've never seen nor heard about this before! Thanks for sharing. Did some digging in on our local newspaper: http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/more-locations-for-scheme-that-gives-elderly-extra-time-to-cross-the-road http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/more-locations-for-sch... Looks like the proof of concept was started way back in 2009!
- agrahul 9y agoI was curious how long it's been around, and did some digging. It seems to have been launched in 2009[1] and greatly expanded between 2011 and 2013[2]. [1] https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=3afz2r6kt67606vuscj0akd890h806x0zmb0y1ntv2vokwha7n https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/page.aspx?c=2&id=3afz2r6kt6... [2] https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/default.aspx?scr=yes&keyword=Green%20Man%20Plus%20(GMP) https://www.lta.gov.sg/apps/news/default.aspx?scr=yes&keywor...
- beached_whale 9y agoAt least in Ontario, Canada you have as much time as you need to make forward progress once you legally enter the intersection. Or something like that. But the light is there to indicate it is allowed to enter, not how long you have.
- CraigJPerry 9y agoSame in the uk - green doesn't mean go, it means go if it's clear. Pedestrians can take all week to cross if they want. Drivers will honk their horns for sure but legally the peds have right of way.
- netrus 9y agoSame in Germany. In Hamburg, the Critical Mass bikers make use of this trick: They are cycling as one large group, and thus are treated like a single vehicle (a special rule, intended for groups of bike racers): once the first biker is on the crossing, everyone behind them can follow, even if the lights go red. in the summer, several thousand bikers participate!
- wil421 9y agoSame where I am in the US. If they are in the crosswalk they still have right of way. In my area they have special blinking lights near crosswalks by heavy traffic areas. You press a button to walk and it comes on instantly, speed limit is only 35 mph. There is also a special pedestrian only red light button for major road crossings. No cars use the light and it only turns on for people walking.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- konschubert 9y agoSame in Germany. The problem is that many car drivers don't know this. I have been honked at and showered with profanities more than once. And I am not a slow walker.
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- donretag 9y agoHow many elderly people actually have smart phones? The article said they had very few users, but blamed it on unwary users. Of the 70+ year old people that I know, most do not even have a dumb phone, let alone a smart phone.
- codyogden 9y agoI look at innovative services/apps that target the elderly as something that may not be as relevant to the current elderly generation, but in 10-20 years when more tech-savvy people have aged there will be a huge need for services like this. Elderly people in even 10 years from now will own smart phones.
- almostarockstar 9y agoI totally agree. It's about fixing problems ahead of time. The only problem is that without a drive now, the tech could disappear, and when it finally does become relevant, an argument might be made that "it didn't work before, so it's not going to work now".
- thinkfurther 9y ago> in 10-20 years when more tech-savvy people have aged there will be a huge need for services like this The need is for people to be mobile and to not get run over, not for them to have something that can use their gadget for. And what does tech-savyness have to do with it? I forgot more about tech than the average person learns, and that is why I don't have a smartphone. Not because I'm so scared of it, but because I like to get shit done, and I know how to configure and operate an actual computer to do so. So speaking of the future, will people be allowed to not be chipped in some way, or will we continue to invent straw men for the choice not to be, as if opting out is the problem rather than needing everybody to opt in? Here's an idea: if you have a smart phone, walk to the middle island, press the button again, and play tic tac toe or whatever fancy stuff it can do. The person who is forced to just watch cars for 2 minutes instead, let's get a solution for them first. It will also work for the smartphone owner so they're not really second, it's just that you don't waste time coming up with a non-solution first. That's what'd happen if we didn't use the disabled and elderly to put a nice face on our emerging dystopia, but I know that's way too radical. Just today I saw the saddest thing in the subway. Two toddlers in a big carriage next to me, when I saw them I had to grin at first, as they were moving around and making sounds, spreading a spirit of liveliness as toddlers tend to do. But then daddy handed them two big tablets (the one for the girl was pink, I shit you not), and they started both watch a cartoon and fell silent, the girl with her back turned to her brother. They couldn't even talk yet it seemed, since they had just made noises before. The father seemed super fond and attentive of them, it would have been easier to stomach if he had seemed loveless... but he wanted to make the train ride more enjoyable to them, that's all. This is the best way he knew how. I died a little inside taking all that in in the span of a few minutes, and I doubt I will fully recover. I had to look away at some point because I felt like crying. Never mind turning me off from the always on blinkenlights hanging jaw lifestyle, never mind my own doubts about having kids just for Moloch to eat them as they bounce around like hollow pinballs, this was fit to turn me off public transportation. And I've seen, and smelled, some horrid stuff, I saw some very depressed or sick people. But nothing stung like this.
- tetraodonpuffer 9y agocouldn't we simply have crosswalks that have 3 buttons for short (bike) medium (normal walking) long (need extra time)? Seems like it would be cheaper and more accessible than an app.
- Nanite 9y agoSlightly of topic: A while a go I visited South Korea for the first time, and got weird looks whenever I pushed the button at crosswalks, that and the button talked back...Next day I'm again at a crossing with our Korean client and push the button, she starts laughing and tells me: I had no idea your were blind :) Turns out the button only calls out when it's safe to cross.
- jtl999 9y ago> Another version detects visually impaired pedestrians and activates the ticking sounds that tell them whether the light is red or green. As a visually impaired person I think the ticking sound should be on all the time at traffic lights. When I visited Madrid and Barcelona recently that was the way they handled it.
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- filereaper 9y agoI think this is a social problem, not a technological one. If there's an elderly person taking longer to cross, stop and wait, or help them out. I haven't read of any significant road-rage caused by elderly taking too long to cross traffic signals. We've been doing this since cars became mainstream, not really sure why we need to add an app and sync the traffic system with this app. Is there really a problem here to solve?
- aaron695 9y agoBy this definition you kinda claim traffic lights are not being used in part for pedestrian safety?
- Fomite 9y agoA six-land dual carriageway means that there's definite possibilities that drivers won't see him, and are traveling at a speed where a sudden stop is actively dangerous. We solved this with crosswalks. Now all we're doing is adding dynamic timing based on pedestrian movement.
- paulcole 9y agoIf anything it should give less time to encourage a more active elderly population.
- jbms 9y agoA startup in Scotland lets disabled users press the cross button by tapping an app on their phone. Conceivably the app could tell from movement whether the person was crossed before communicating it's safe to let cars go again. https://neatebox.com/local-authority/ https://neatebox.com/local-authority/