8 ms·

I can see why the MTA wouldn't want you telling people to go to a track before it is actually assigned -- if the train ends up on a different track, now you nee

I can see why the MTA wouldn't want you telling people to go to a track before it is actually assigned -- if the train ends up on a different track, now you need to get all those people back up, off that platform an on to the new one, clogging stairs that that people who actually wanted that platform might be trying to use too. Obviously it would be nice to assign tracks earlier, so that people can head straight to the right platform, but sending people to potentially the wrong platform seems even worse. EDIT: Penn is extremely platform/track constrained -- NJ Transit, LIRR and Amtrak are all sharing a fixed number of platforms, some of which are too short. To maximize platform utilization, they have to wait until the last minute to finalize track assignments -- if you reserve one too early and the train ends up late, you're wasting an empty platform. Once you send a horde of people to a platform, moving them to a different one is a challenge (stairs/bottlenecks, communication, etc).

FussyZeus 9y ago
Thing is though, they could be providing that data MUCH earlier both on the displays and to a phone app. It's not like they don't decide where a train is going until it gets to the station, that would be ridiculous, they'd have to know a while in advance to make sure the track is available, clear, operating correctly, and do all the necessary switching (and more importantly, do so in such a way that doesn't impact other trains). MTA's appeared a number of times on this website and by all accounts it's where tech innovation goes to die, most of their service is still based on switch wire systems that were built in the 60's. Whether that's due to bureaucratic inertia, inadequate funding, or unions or whatever I have no idea, but that's the real problem.
- dreamcompiler 9y ago
  Based on the other comments here, I'm guessing they don't post train numbers until the arriving train has disembarked so its passengers can clear the platform before the horde arrives. It probably has nothing to do with technology.
- s73ver 9y ago
  Given the other comments on this issue, it's not so much that MTA hates innovation, but that those who would be "disruptors" don't actually understand the entirety of the problem.
spyspy 9y ago
Have you ever taken a rush hour train at Penn Station? The alternative (i.e. current system) is everyone congregates on the concourse staring at the platform screens, and when a new one pops up hundreds of people flood in the direction of that platform in a mad dash. It's a mess.
- state_machine 9y ago
  I've only done much less hellish Grand Central version, and I think Metro North publishes track assignments much earlier. That said though, just imagine how much worse it would be if that mass rush was between platforms, fighting opposing traffic, instead of just from a (mostly) open waiting area.
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    >"I've only done much less hellish Grand Central version, and I think Metro North publishes track assignments much earlier." There is so much more space to wait for track assignments as well as space on the grand stairwell to get down to the track in Grand Central(even with tourists) that I don't think they are comparable at all. If the Metro North does publish assignments much earlier it's likely because its much safer to do so. Although I don't think I've ever seen people waiting on the platforms for Metro North trains in Grand Central.
    - state_machine 9y ago
      Yeah, that's fair. If I have to take LIRR, I'll generally use Atlantic and switch at Jamaica if needed -- anything to avoid Penn.
      - jrockway 9y ago
        If you're trying to get a seat on a train that originates at Penn, changing at Jamaica doesn't help, however.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  It is exactly this alternative(the current system) that the Amtrak/MTA/LIRR prefer for safety reasons. Amtrak which also has the same procedure at Penn states this here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/17/amtrak_s_unpersuasive_response_on_boarding_procedures.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/17/amtrak_s_unpe... Although it is indeed inefficient and the MTA is completely inept, the platforms for LIRR trains are very narrow, they are shared by two trains and the escalators to get up to the main floor are also very narrow and crowded already. So although the "mad dash" is in fact a mess, its a safer mess than overcrowding the platforms on the tracks.
CPLX 9y ago
It's more serious than that even, it's a safety issue. The platforms are fairly narrow and have no railings, and they aren't designed to hold two full train loads of people at the same time. If a full train pulls up and the platform is already full people are going to end up on the tracks. I haven't seen this at Penn but I have seen the issue happen in the subway when there are train delays. When this happens the MTA has to hold the arriving train in the station with the doors closed and clear the platform before opening the doors to let people off. It's a nightmare. Their concerns here seem completely reasonable.
- tedmiston 9y ago
  > The platforms are fairly narrow and have no railings, and they aren't designed to hold two full train loads of people at the same time. It seems pretty unlikely that 100% of the people on the outbound train would use the app and trust the historical data to go to the platform early.
  - potatolicious 9y ago
    It doesn't have to be 100% - a significant number of waiting people will still present a safety issue. The platforms are very narrow for the LIRR tracks, so holding 200% of a train (outbound and inbound) would be sheer pandemonium, and would practically guarantee someone falls off the platform. Even holding 100% of a train (just inbound, disembarking passengers) is already straining the platforms and methods of egress to their limits. Holding even just 110-120% of a train load is very much a safety issue. I'm with the MTA on this one - the "mad dash" is horrifyingly inefficient, but is the safest course of action. Of course, the correct fix to this is to fix the platforms such that passengers can wait at track-level without safety issue. But, of course, that's a multi-billion dollar problem nobody seems willing to touch.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      People in that station actually talk to each other, so a few % of app users in the crowd might result in a large number of people knowing. I'd hate to imagine what would happen during peak if a train came in on an unexpected track AND a different train on the expected track - it is not unusual for multiple trains to be announced at once. Then you'd have a pile of people trying to go up those narrow stairs while a pile of people were trying to go down.
Spooky23 9y ago
I don't use the LIRR tracks often, but many of the Amtrak trains arrive at the same track or 1-2 tracks. Veteran travelers know where to go, casual travelers are stuck in this maze that is very difficult to navigate.

FussyZeus 9y ago

Thing is though, they could be providing that data MUCH earlier both on the displays and to a phone app. It's not like they don't decide where a train is going until it gets to the station, that would be ridiculous, they'd have to know a while in advance to make sure the track is available, clear, operating correctly, and do all the necessary switching (and more importantly, do so in such a way that doesn't impact other trains). MTA's appeared a number of times on this website and by all accounts it's where tech innovation goes to die, most of their service is still based on switch wire systems that were built in the 60's. Whether that's due to bureaucratic inertia, inadequate funding, or unions or whatever I have no idea, but that's the real problem.

dreamcompiler 9y ago
Based on the other comments here, I'm guessing they don't post train numbers until the arriving train has disembarked so its passengers can clear the platform before the horde arrives. It probably has nothing to do with technology.
s73ver 9y ago
Given the other comments on this issue, it's not so much that MTA hates innovation, but that those who would be "disruptors" don't actually understand the entirety of the problem.

spyspy 9y ago

Have you ever taken a rush hour train at Penn Station? The alternative (i.e. current system) is everyone congregates on the concourse staring at the platform screens, and when a new one pops up hundreds of people flood in the direction of that platform in a mad dash. It's a mess.

state_machine 9y ago
I've only done much less hellish Grand Central version, and I think Metro North publishes track assignments much earlier. That said though, just imagine how much worse it would be if that mass rush was between platforms, fighting opposing traffic, instead of just from a (mostly) open waiting area.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  >"I've only done much less hellish Grand Central version, and I think Metro North publishes track assignments much earlier." There is so much more space to wait for track assignments as well as space on the grand stairwell to get down to the track in Grand Central(even with tourists) that I don't think they are comparable at all. If the Metro North does publish assignments much earlier it's likely because its much safer to do so. Although I don't think I've ever seen people waiting on the platforms for Metro North trains in Grand Central.
  - state_machine 9y ago
    Yeah, that's fair. If I have to take LIRR, I'll generally use Atlantic and switch at Jamaica if needed -- anything to avoid Penn.
    - jrockway 9y ago
      If you're trying to get a seat on a train that originates at Penn, changing at Jamaica doesn't help, however.
bogomipz 9y ago
It is exactly this alternative(the current system) that the Amtrak/MTA/LIRR prefer for safety reasons. Amtrak which also has the same procedure at Penn states this here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/17/amtrak_s_unpersuasive_response_on_boarding_procedures.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/07/17/amtrak_s_unpe... Although it is indeed inefficient and the MTA is completely inept, the platforms for LIRR trains are very narrow, they are shared by two trains and the escalators to get up to the main floor are also very narrow and crowded already. So although the "mad dash" is in fact a mess, its a safer mess than overcrowding the platforms on the tracks.

CPLX 9y ago

It's more serious than that even, it's a safety issue. The platforms are fairly narrow and have no railings, and they aren't designed to hold two full train loads of people at the same time. If a full train pulls up and the platform is already full people are going to end up on the tracks. I haven't seen this at Penn but I have seen the issue happen in the subway when there are train delays. When this happens the MTA has to hold the arriving train in the station with the doors closed and clear the platform before opening the doors to let people off. It's a nightmare. Their concerns here seem completely reasonable.

tedmiston 9y ago
> The platforms are fairly narrow and have no railings, and they aren't designed to hold two full train loads of people at the same time. It seems pretty unlikely that 100% of the people on the outbound train would use the app and trust the historical data to go to the platform early.
- potatolicious 9y ago
  It doesn't have to be 100% - a significant number of waiting people will still present a safety issue. The platforms are very narrow for the LIRR tracks, so holding 200% of a train (outbound and inbound) would be sheer pandemonium, and would practically guarantee someone falls off the platform. Even holding 100% of a train (just inbound, disembarking passengers) is already straining the platforms and methods of egress to their limits. Holding even just 110-120% of a train load is very much a safety issue. I'm with the MTA on this one - the "mad dash" is horrifyingly inefficient, but is the safest course of action. Of course, the correct fix to this is to fix the platforms such that passengers can wait at track-level without safety issue. But, of course, that's a multi-billion dollar problem nobody seems willing to touch.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    People in that station actually talk to each other, so a few % of app users in the crowd might result in a large number of people knowing. I'd hate to imagine what would happen during peak if a train came in on an unexpected track AND a different train on the expected track - it is not unusual for multiple trains to be announced at once. Then you'd have a pile of people trying to go up those narrow stairs while a pile of people were trying to go down.

Spooky23 9y ago

I don't use the LIRR tracks often, but many of the Amtrak trains arrive at the same track or 1-2 tracks. Veteran travelers know where to go, casual travelers are stuck in this maze that is very difficult to navigate.