6 ms·

> If only wayland was more mature, and the Linux world would have put down X11 once and for all, I would be back on Linux a long time ago :) I'm curious why Wa

by ori_b 9y ago

> If only wayland was more mature, and the Linux world would have put down X11 once and for all, I would be back on Linux a long time ago :) I'm curious why Wayland changes things for you. X11 is warty as hell, but that's generally not something visible to the user. I don't go "Eww, they didn't bother framing the graphics message packets properly -- I'm going to use another OS".

legulere 9y ago
X11 is also responsible for some of the sluggishness of the Linux desktop, like resizing windows.
- Vogtinator 9y ago
  With compositing enabled that doesn't really matter.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
pjmlp 9y ago
I guess a proper stack for doing 3D graphics, instead of the gimmicks that X has had over the years? I lost count how many times I sat at FOSDEM X room, seeing the improvements that would eventually come (some day).
- pcwalton 9y ago
  The Mesa/DRM stack is significantly better than Apple's, because the OpenGL implementation actually works, and Vulkan is supported on at least some hardware. At the protocol level, X isn't involved that much with the 3D graphics stack anyhow these days. Xorg simply speaks DRI3, which is just a way to marshal file descriptors representing graphics buffers over the connection. It isn't involved in the rendering happening at either end (application and compositor).
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Metal is fine and supported by all relevant engines, thanks. As the name says, DRI3 was yet another attempt to improve the whole performance stack on Linux. As mentioned, I did my share of FOSDEM sessions.
    - jcelerier 9y ago
      > Metal is fine and supported by all relevant engines, thanks. thanks for the laugh
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Professional game developers have a different opinion regarding graphics APIs, even those that have been strong OpenGL apologists in the past: "John Carmack: Its still OpenGL, although we obviously use a D3D-ish API [on the Xbox 360], and CG on the PS3. Its interesting how little of the technology cares what API you're using and what generation of the technology you're on. You've got a small handful of files that care about what API they're on, and millions of lines of code that are agnostic to the platform that they're on." http://fd.fabiensanglard.net/doom3/pdfs/johnc-interviews.pdf http://fd.fabiensanglard.net/doom3/pdfs/johnc-interviews.pdf AAA studios already adopted Metal on their engines, Vulkan only matters on GNU/Linux among those having supported graphics cards. On Android, it is only available as optional graphics API in 10% of devices available worldwide. On Windows, it is only supported on legacy Win32, it isn't and it won't be supported on UWP. On Nintendo Switch, there is the option to use the more lower level API NVN instead. So laugh at will, lets see which APIs game studios care about.
        littlestymaar 9y ago
        > AAA studios already adopted Metal on their engines Genuine question : Do AAA studio really care about metal ? Is gaming on Mac a thing now ?
        rsynnott 9y ago
- ori_b 9y ago
  But Wayland is that exact same 3d graphics stack.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Kind of, because it is built on top EGL so everything is done via the 3D stack. On X there is a mixture of X protocol, 3D stack and the interactions among all possible combinations.
mikalv 9y ago
Haha, well it's not only X11, but it's one of the main reasons. Other reasons are that for my usage and work, it just "works", no hours of configuration in dotfiles. Also it's convenient as a cross platform developer, since I can just crosscompile to Linux and Windows(mingw) via Docker. However, without the Mac, you'll have to break some licenses with a hackintosh. I think the project is cool, but in work related situations I can't do that because of legal reasons. This also reminds me about a cool project I've found, but not had time to test yet; https://github.com/shinh/maloader https://github.com/shinh/maloader
- eru 9y ago
  The graphical user interface has almost nothing to do with ease of configuration. And yes, ease of configuration is worth a lot. Related anecdote: I started a friend of mine on Ubuntu, but she hated all the configuration via endless clicking. She immediately took to Archlinux---there's still configuration, but it's simpler and since it's all text, it's much easier to just read everything on the Archwiki instead of having to follow pictures (or descriptions of pictures).
- unixhero 9y ago
  Yeah. Linux is not like that any more. Try Linux Mint. The only configuration you will do is to enter your username and password.
  - nickpsecurity 9y ago
    And then again when their site gets subverted and you have to reinstall since you might have a rootkitted binary. I loved Mint for its incredible usability. Just can't recommend a supplier whose security was that bad.
    - unixhero 9y ago
      Nah. You can't hold a 'maintainer transgression' which happened two years ago against them forever. They have indeed implemented solid checks and offer a Shaxxx-sum file for every iso file they publish. Not only that, bt publicly "soul searched" and went to great lenghts to assure the community and its users that such mistakes would not be repeated. Now verifying the authenticity of the iso file actively encouraged, on the download page. They made a mistake, took solid steps to improve, and the show has moved on. You should too, instead of smearing the project far far down the line. (I'm being retorical, I know)

by ori_b 9y ago

legulere 9y ago

X11 is also responsible for some of the sluggishness of the Linux desktop, like resizing windows.

Vogtinator 9y ago
With compositing enabled that doesn't really matter.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

pjmlp 9y ago

I guess a proper stack for doing 3D graphics, instead of the gimmicks that X has had over the years? I lost count how many times I sat at FOSDEM X room, seeing the improvements that would eventually come (some day).

pcwalton 9y ago
The Mesa/DRM stack is significantly better than Apple's, because the OpenGL implementation actually works, and Vulkan is supported on at least some hardware. At the protocol level, X isn't involved that much with the 3D graphics stack anyhow these days. Xorg simply speaks DRI3, which is just a way to marshal file descriptors representing graphics buffers over the connection. It isn't involved in the rendering happening at either end (application and compositor).
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Metal is fine and supported by all relevant engines, thanks. As the name says, DRI3 was yet another attempt to improve the whole performance stack on Linux. As mentioned, I did my share of FOSDEM sessions.
  - jcelerier 9y ago
    > Metal is fine and supported by all relevant engines, thanks. thanks for the laugh
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Professional game developers have a different opinion regarding graphics APIs, even those that have been strong OpenGL apologists in the past: "John Carmack: Its still OpenGL, although we obviously use a D3D-ish API [on the Xbox 360], and CG on the PS3. Its interesting how little of the technology cares what API you're using and what generation of the technology you're on. You've got a small handful of files that care about what API they're on, and millions of lines of code that are agnostic to the platform that they're on." http://fd.fabiensanglard.net/doom3/pdfs/johnc-interviews.pdf http://fd.fabiensanglard.net/doom3/pdfs/johnc-interviews.pdf AAA studios already adopted Metal on their engines, Vulkan only matters on GNU/Linux among those having supported graphics cards. On Android, it is only available as optional graphics API in 10% of devices available worldwide. On Windows, it is only supported on legacy Win32, it isn't and it won't be supported on UWP. On Nintendo Switch, there is the option to use the more lower level API NVN instead. So laugh at will, lets see which APIs game studios care about.
      - littlestymaar 9y ago
        > AAA studios already adopted Metal on their engines Genuine question : Do AAA studio really care about metal ? Is gaming on Mac a thing now ?
        rsynnott 9y ago
ori_b 9y ago
But Wayland is that exact same 3d graphics stack.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Kind of, because it is built on top EGL so everything is done via the 3D stack. On X there is a mixture of X protocol, 3D stack and the interactions among all possible combinations.

mikalv 9y ago

Haha, well it's not only X11, but it's one of the main reasons. Other reasons are that for my usage and work, it just "works", no hours of configuration in dotfiles. Also it's convenient as a cross platform developer, since I can just crosscompile to Linux and Windows(mingw) via Docker. However, without the Mac, you'll have to break some licenses with a hackintosh. I think the project is cool, but in work related situations I can't do that because of legal reasons. This also reminds me about a cool project I've found, but not had time to test yet; https://github.com/shinh/maloader https://github.com/shinh/maloader

eru 9y ago
The graphical user interface has almost nothing to do with ease of configuration. And yes, ease of configuration is worth a lot. Related anecdote: I started a friend of mine on Ubuntu, but she hated all the configuration via endless clicking. She immediately took to Archlinux---there's still configuration, but it's simpler and since it's all text, it's much easier to just read everything on the Archwiki instead of having to follow pictures (or descriptions of pictures).
unixhero 9y ago
Yeah. Linux is not like that any more. Try Linux Mint. The only configuration you will do is to enter your username and password.
- nickpsecurity 9y ago
  And then again when their site gets subverted and you have to reinstall since you might have a rootkitted binary. I loved Mint for its incredible usability. Just can't recommend a supplier whose security was that bad.
  - unixhero 9y ago
    Nah. You can't hold a 'maintainer transgression' which happened two years ago against them forever. They have indeed implemented solid checks and offer a Shaxxx-sum file for every iso file they publish. Not only that, bt publicly "soul searched" and went to great lenghts to assure the community and its users that such mistakes would not be repeated. Now verifying the authenticity of the iso file actively encouraged, on the download page. They made a mistake, took solid steps to improve, and the show has moved on. You should too, instead of smearing the project far far down the line. (I'm being retorical, I know)