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Well sure. That's my whole point. If the US engages in what I consider immoral or otherwise indefensible behavior, the fact that I am an American has no bearing

by mwfunk 9y ago

Well sure. That's my whole point. If the US engages in what I consider immoral or otherwise indefensible behavior, the fact that I am an American has no bearing on how harshly I judge that behavior. I hold Russians to the same standards as I hold myself, therefore I expect them to denounce the actions of their government when appropriate. I don't give two shits whether or not some other country (including my own) has engaged in the same shitty behavior that some other country that I'm currently worried about is currently engaged in. Shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and I have zero tolerance for it. If Russia has mysterious patterns of Putin's political opponents getting imprisoned or murdered on a regular basis, the fact that some American politicians may have done something similarly shitty at some point had absolutely zero affect on me. Yeah, it's just as shitty when America does it. What's your fucking point? I'm speaking out as a human being, not as an American calling out Russia. Accusations of hypocrisy mean nothing to me, or anyone in this debate (I would hope at least). I don't complain about Russia because I think America is better, I complain about Russia because Putin is one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now.

coldtea 9y ago
That's the thing though. If indeed "shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and [you] have zero tolerance for it" then he is not "one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now" but just an average, run of the mill, arsehole. Saying "shitty behavior is shitty, doesn't matter who is doing it" is meaningful if indeed those proclaiming don't in practice restrict their criticism to a single party. If people critique many times as much with much worse language X compared to their critique of Y (especially if Y does worse to begin with), then it shows the opposite: that some shitty behavior is more excused than others. Especially if the result of one kind of critique is just some tame protesting in the media and/or the streets ("Stop Bush's war", "Obama didn't do what he promised", "Trump is this and that", etc.), whereas the other criticism is aligned with and brings with it a whole military machine, sanctions against the country, diplomatic pressure, etc.
- mwfunk 9y ago
  I guess that's the root of our disagreement then. I don't see him as a run-of-the-mill asshole. I see him as one of the most dangerous people in the entire world. I could point to some other national leaders who on the surface seem way worse than Putin, but those people aren't smart enough or powerful enough to have the kind of impact on the world that he does. I think Putin is way more intelligent, capable, and ambitious than Duterte for example, and Duterte certainly fits into the "psychopathic authoritarian monster" stereotype far more obviously than Putin does. But Putin in the long term can do far more damage to the world at large. Duterte is a cartoon, and as awful as he is, I don't think he has ambitions beyond his own borders. Putin most definitely has such ambitions, and the ability to achieve them. And of course, in a selfish sense I'm extra worried about him because he's clearly hostile to my country, and the values and ideals that I hold, as well as the values and ideals that my country holds (at least on paper, even if it doesn't always do a great job of representing them).

by mwfunk 9y ago

coldtea 9y ago

That's the thing though. If indeed "shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and [you] have zero tolerance for it" then he is not "one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now" but just an average, run of the mill, arsehole. Saying "shitty behavior is shitty, doesn't matter who is doing it" is meaningful if indeed those proclaiming don't in practice restrict their criticism to a single party. If people critique many times as much with much worse language X compared to their critique of Y (especially if Y does worse to begin with), then it shows the opposite: that some shitty behavior is more excused than others. Especially if the result of one kind of critique is just some tame protesting in the media and/or the streets ("Stop Bush's war", "Obama didn't do what he promised", "Trump is this and that", etc.), whereas the other criticism is aligned with and brings with it a whole military machine, sanctions against the country, diplomatic pressure, etc.

mwfunk 9y ago
I guess that's the root of our disagreement then. I don't see him as a run-of-the-mill asshole. I see him as one of the most dangerous people in the entire world. I could point to some other national leaders who on the surface seem way worse than Putin, but those people aren't smart enough or powerful enough to have the kind of impact on the world that he does. I think Putin is way more intelligent, capable, and ambitious than Duterte for example, and Duterte certainly fits into the "psychopathic authoritarian monster" stereotype far more obviously than Putin does. But Putin in the long term can do far more damage to the world at large. Duterte is a cartoon, and as awful as he is, I don't think he has ambitions beyond his own borders. Putin most definitely has such ambitions, and the ability to achieve them. And of course, in a selfish sense I'm extra worried about him because he's clearly hostile to my country, and the values and ideals that I hold, as well as the values and ideals that my country holds (at least on paper, even if it doesn't always do a great job of representing them).