4 ms·

And notice that that the US, UK, Germany, and Japan are all in dire economic straits right now. Also, the police force not a socialist institution. To sustain

by tkahn6 16y ago

And notice that that the US, UK, Germany, and Japan are all in dire economic straits right now. Also, the police force not a socialist institution. To sustain a free market requires the state-sanctioned protection of life and property. The police force is a very 'capitalist' institution.

chwahoo 16y ago
Regarding the police, I know that there is a least a subset of libertarian capitalists that would disagree with you. They seem to dislike the police and strongly prefer gun rights for protection of self and property.
- ovi256 16y ago
  >They seem to dislike the police and strongly prefer gun rights for protection of self and property. The Wild West huh? Well, we know how that turns out: professional pistoleros rob at will, and honest citizens flee to towns that have a police force. Back to square one.
  - kiba 16y ago
    The Wild West huh? These same libertarians would use examples of the wild west as "not so wild west". Their historical interpretation is a bit different than yours.
Sumason 16y ago
"The police force is a very 'capitalist' institution." Seriously? Are you are claiming that socialism has very little or no need for police? This whole statement seems a little... shoddy.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Your statement is a non-sequitur. The fact that socialism requires a police force does not negate the fact that capitalism also requires one. Similarly, in a socialist nation, people eat hamburgers. This does not imply that hamburgers eat people in a capitalist nation.
forkandwait 16y ago
Well, China is doing pretty OK and they are to the socialist side of the continuum. And, as long as we are trading isolated examples to prove general theories, what country is on the capitalist side of the spectrum and doing notably well? For bonus points, find me a nation that bet the farm on innovative securities and is doing especially well. Don't get me wrong, I love markets and entrepeneurship (sp?); I just tend toward the Rockefeller Republican / Conservative Democrat zone, in which we believe that (1) the important thing is the details of governance (tax policy details, not debates about whether taxes are good) and (2) that "society" is more fundamental than "the market."
- tkahn6 16y ago
  Well, Brazil is doing pretty well. My point was not to prove a general theory by isolated example - simply to provide a counterpoint. I think it's more fruitful to compare the economic/moral philosophies of these systems than to compare examples of them. Primarily because no isolated example is a paragon of its stated parent philosophy and (more practically) because a Marxist country doesn't exist and a capitalist country doesn't exist to compare. And I'm genuinely curious how you separate tax policy debate from whether taxes are good. I don't think any socioeconomic system says all taxes are bad, but they do differ on what it is moral to tax for.
  - loewenskind 16y ago
    A pure capitalist country was tried in Chile though. They had to back out the "purity" pretty quickly.

by tkahn6 16y ago

chwahoo 16y ago

Regarding the police, I know that there is a least a subset of libertarian capitalists that would disagree with you. They seem to dislike the police and strongly prefer gun rights for protection of self and property.

ovi256 16y ago
>They seem to dislike the police and strongly prefer gun rights for protection of self and property. The Wild West huh? Well, we know how that turns out: professional pistoleros rob at will, and honest citizens flee to towns that have a police force. Back to square one.
- kiba 16y ago
  The Wild West huh? These same libertarians would use examples of the wild west as "not so wild west". Their historical interpretation is a bit different than yours.

Sumason 16y ago

"The police force is a very 'capitalist' institution." Seriously? Are you are claiming that socialism has very little or no need for police? This whole statement seems a little... shoddy.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Your statement is a non-sequitur. The fact that socialism requires a police force does not negate the fact that capitalism also requires one. Similarly, in a socialist nation, people eat hamburgers. This does not imply that hamburgers eat people in a capitalist nation.

forkandwait 16y ago

Well, China is doing pretty OK and they are to the socialist side of the continuum. And, as long as we are trading isolated examples to prove general theories, what country is on the capitalist side of the spectrum and doing notably well? For bonus points, find me a nation that bet the farm on innovative securities and is doing especially well. Don't get me wrong, I love markets and entrepeneurship (sp?); I just tend toward the Rockefeller Republican / Conservative Democrat zone, in which we believe that (1) the important thing is the details of governance (tax policy details, not debates about whether taxes are good) and (2) that "society" is more fundamental than "the market."

tkahn6 16y ago
Well, Brazil is doing pretty well. My point was not to prove a general theory by isolated example - simply to provide a counterpoint. I think it's more fruitful to compare the economic/moral philosophies of these systems than to compare examples of them. Primarily because no isolated example is a paragon of its stated parent philosophy and (more practically) because a Marxist country doesn't exist and a capitalist country doesn't exist to compare. And I'm genuinely curious how you separate tax policy debate from whether taxes are good. I don't think any socioeconomic system says all taxes are bad, but they do differ on what it is moral to tax for.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  A pure capitalist country was tried in Chile though. They had to back out the "purity" pretty quickly.