4 ms·

Stories like this make me glad to live in Germany. Things are by no means perfect, we have the same cases of sexism, harrasment and scandals as everybody else.

Stories like this make me glad to live in Germany. Things are by no means perfect, we have the same cases of sexism, harrasment and scandals as everybody else. But it would never occur to me that it is inappropriate to be alone with a female colleague at work. When this topic came up at a mixed American/German lunch round at work (in the US), and someone said you shouldn't close the door if a woman and a man are alone in an office, the Germans literally did a spit take. In fact, not treating women exactly like your male colleages would be considered backwards and offensive by many women, rather than considerate or appropriate. But it also works the other way around. If you think something is inappropriate when women are around, then it is inapproprate, period. What I mean is this kind of old boys attitude / bro jokes / casual sexism. This is actually a pretty endemic problem here (they speak of Altherrenwitze = old men's jokes), but at least it is considered inappropriate nowadays. But that is about the maximal extent of "inappropriateness". To see something wrong in sharing a car or having lunch alone with a member of the opposite sex reminds most people here of Saudi Arabia, I would say.

deleted 9y ago
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mikestew 9y ago
Things are by no means perfect, we have the same cases of sexism, harrasment and scandals as everybody else. But it would never occur to me that it is inappropriate to be alone with a female colleague at work. How believable would a claim of sexual harassment be if everyone you asked said, "I have never known him to be behind a closed door with any woman but his wife"? I mean, that's the point of the article, right? Folks spun all kinds of rumors about the first century Christians. Peter admonished them to live such that anyone hearing those rumors would laugh them off as ridiculous. Ever wonder why Billy Graham was never caught in some sex scandal while his peers all around him were? He was never alone in a room with a woman other than his wife. (And, without personally knowing the man, it probably helped if he never had sex with anyone but his wife as well.) You acknowledge the same scandals as in the U. S., and yet I don't understand how it's all weird and shit, like "Saudi Arabia". Estimate for yourself how many of those cases wouldn't exist had the parties involved gave not even the appearance of impropriety. Let's say, hypothetically, one party accuses the other of sexual harassment. And, because we've been temporarily granted psychic powers, we know the accused didn't do anything of the sort. Well, if there have been a lot of closed-door meetings and one-on-one sessions at the bar, some people are going to believe the rumors. And it's not just sex. I've known a number of church pastors over the years, and to a man and woman they'll tell you they never touch the church money. Easy to shoot down rumors of dipping out of the collection plate if no one can say they've ever seen they pastor touch a single dollar bill. Of those that do count the money, I've always seen two people in the room. It squelches rumors, and probably most importantly, removes the temptation. Whereas I've been reading a surprising number of stories over the past year of children's soccer/football and baseball leagues losing tens of thousands from unaccountable team treasurers embezzling the funds. Some people are going to believe the rumor regardless, that's just the way they roll. Others will need a little convincing. My advice is not to give them any more ammo than necessary.
- captainmuon 9y ago
  I guess people here are less afraid of false accusations, and more of 1) actual wrongdoing, and 2) creating wierd rules that they feel are sexist or anachronistic. Just to insure myself against potential false allegations of affairs or harrasment doesn't seem to be reason enough to advise that kind of segregation. Also its a slippery slope: it may start as a precaution, but if widespread, it becomes semi-mandatory. The comparison with Saudi Arabia is hyperbolic of course, but I think not too far fetched. Everywhere where men and women are segregated, the stated motivation is not misogyny, but to protect women, and some kind of decency. It only ever looks wrong from the outside.
draw_down 9y ago
It's not that sharing a car or whatever is wrong, it opens up a space of possibility that something untoward has taken place. The idea is to not even allow the possibility. The point about segregated places (not necessarily KSA specifically) is an interesting one, though.

deleted 9y ago

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mikestew 9y ago

Things are by no means perfect, we have the same cases of sexism, harrasment and scandals as everybody else. But it would never occur to me that it is inappropriate to be alone with a female colleague at work. How believable would a claim of sexual harassment be if everyone you asked said, "I have never known him to be behind a closed door with any woman but his wife"? I mean, that's the point of the article, right? Folks spun all kinds of rumors about the first century Christians. Peter admonished them to live such that anyone hearing those rumors would laugh them off as ridiculous. Ever wonder why Billy Graham was never caught in some sex scandal while his peers all around him were? He was never alone in a room with a woman other than his wife. (And, without personally knowing the man, it probably helped if he never had sex with anyone but his wife as well.) You acknowledge the same scandals as in the U. S., and yet I don't understand how it's all weird and shit, like "Saudi Arabia". Estimate for yourself how many of those cases wouldn't exist had the parties involved gave not even the appearance of impropriety. Let's say, hypothetically, one party accuses the other of sexual harassment. And, because we've been temporarily granted psychic powers, we know the accused didn't do anything of the sort. Well, if there have been a lot of closed-door meetings and one-on-one sessions at the bar, some people are going to believe the rumors. And it's not just sex. I've known a number of church pastors over the years, and to a man and woman they'll tell you they never touch the church money. Easy to shoot down rumors of dipping out of the collection plate if no one can say they've ever seen they pastor touch a single dollar bill. Of those that do count the money, I've always seen two people in the room. It squelches rumors, and probably most importantly, removes the temptation. Whereas I've been reading a surprising number of stories over the past year of children's soccer/football and baseball leagues losing tens of thousands from unaccountable team treasurers embezzling the funds. Some people are going to believe the rumor regardless, that's just the way they roll. Others will need a little convincing. My advice is not to give them any more ammo than necessary.

captainmuon 9y ago
I guess people here are less afraid of false accusations, and more of 1) actual wrongdoing, and 2) creating wierd rules that they feel are sexist or anachronistic. Just to insure myself against potential false allegations of affairs or harrasment doesn't seem to be reason enough to advise that kind of segregation. Also its a slippery slope: it may start as a precaution, but if widespread, it becomes semi-mandatory. The comparison with Saudi Arabia is hyperbolic of course, but I think not too far fetched. Everywhere where men and women are segregated, the stated motivation is not misogyny, but to protect women, and some kind of decency. It only ever looks wrong from the outside.

draw_down 9y ago

It's not that sharing a car or whatever is wrong, it opens up a space of possibility that something untoward has taken place. The idea is to not even allow the possibility. The point about segregated places (not necessarily KSA specifically) is an interesting one, though.