4 ms·

But that's how most research funding works. The same is true if you get a government research grant - do what you want, but if they don't like your results, the

But that's how most research funding works. The same is true if you get a government research grant - do what you want, but if they don't like your results, they are unlikely to fund you another round.

gnicholas 9y ago
I think this is less of a concern with government funding, since in many cases the government doesn't care what you find — they just want you to do reliable research to see what the answers to relevant questions are. For example, if you say "I'm going to research the effect of eating lots of eggs on cholesterol", the government won't care what outcome you find/publish. They funded you because they want the truth to come out about the question you seek to answer. There are some topics where the government "has a dog in the fight" — but much of their research funding is for areas where they are truly agnostic. Google, on the other hand, only funded research related to their business. So they had an agenda, and all the parties knew it. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been able to fund this, or that this is any worse than other industry-funded research. Just that it seems some professors did not make the relevant disclosures, and there was a pretty strong incentive for professors not to bite the hand that feeds them.
- GFischer 9y ago
  Depends on the government of course. A friend was tasked with studying some supposedly more eco-friendly fuels (biodiesel) the government had invested a lot in, and he disclosed his initial findings that they weren't eco-friendly at all, and had his funding pulled and his research buried.
- Godel_unicode 9y ago
  You're comparing apples to oranges; Government not caring about negative/positive results and Google only funding things they care about. Are you implying that government funds research when the topic isn't something they care about, or that Google only likes positive results?
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    No, I was responding to a comment that made a comparison between Google and government. I'm not saying the government never cares about the outcome of research, just that some (much? most?) of their funding goes to answering research questions where the government is agnostic.
    - caseysoftware 9y ago
      The government is made up of people who are fundamentally no better or worse than anyone else. Instead of accepting that anyone is an angel or devil, we should approach all results with a critical eye and push for reproducibility.
  - jgalt212 9y ago
    Google like the tobacco and oil companies and soda companies, etc largely/only want to fund research that furthers their business and public policy aims. It's pretty simple. To equate the two, you'd have to say the USG only funds research that increases the size and scope of USG.
    - joshuamorton 9y ago
      (Disclosure that I work at google) Well, I mean there is that whole thing about how federal funding cannot go to gun violence research. So there are absolutely types of research that the government not just passively, but actively attempts to prevent. I'm not saying that Google is being a good guy here, but I also don't think you can so easily make the argument that the (US) government is any better.
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  > I think this is less of a concern with government funding, since in many cases the government doesn't care what you find — they just want you to do reliable research to see what the answers to relevant questions are. I think that's a somewhat idealistic view. From my reading (which may be out of date, the book was published in 1999), even the basic research funding from governments often has a technological goal in mind, and many of the savvier grant applicants know what that goal is.
- magicalist 9y ago
  > For example, if you say "I'm going to research the effect of eating lots of eggs on cholesterol", the government won't care what outcome you find/publish. They funded you because they want the truth to come out about the question you seek to answer. There are some topics where the government "has a dog in the fight" — but much of their research funding is for areas where they are truly agnostic. This isn't true at all for NSF and NIH grants, FWIW (and "I'm going to research the effect of eating lots of eggs on cholesterol" is not at all the level of specificity of proposals, which is part of this). It's cause for criticism about how they approve grants (null results are science, too), but it's also partly a natural result of having limited money and many many requests for it.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  There's different government grants. Basic research stuff isn't the same as a DARPA grant.
- sapote 9y ago
  That's absolutely not the case. Government-funded research review processes are actually more prescriptive and restrictive and political than Google is. I know this first hand. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Oddly, what ends up happening in a lot of government-funded research review systems is that those reviewing proposals are trying to guess "what kind of research would industry like to see?" so you get the worst of both worlds. Also, Google is largely funding CS research -- this isn't the kind of thing where there's a double blind study going on. It's usually work on a new algorithm or protocol or architecture or ... -- things that are constructive engineering tasks that can be replicated by others when the researchers' papers are published.
rayiner 9y ago
That's not true. Grant funding is a heavily bureaucratic process, with committees scoring proposals on matrices. The bureaucrats don't really care about your previous results (they have no personal investment), and even if they did, they don't really have a mechanism to hold them against you.
- arebop 9y ago
  Is it common for these committees to award grants to profs who (happen to) have a track record using grant funds to open doughnut shops rather than to research the topics mentioned in their previously-funded grant proposals?
  - protomyth 9y ago
    From the grants I've dealt with, you better not in anyway spend the money (that includes line items for particular purposes) in a way inconsistent with the grant. Both the government and non-profits will blackball you so fast its amazing. The government might even have a talk with you. If you absolutely have to change the budget (does happen), you better have permission.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    The government doesn't give you spending money for you to do with as you please. There's a whole web of strings attached. If you open a donut shop with it, you're probably commuting an act of fraud.
Clanan 9y ago
That reflects the problems with research funding - they too incentivize "desired" results, rather than knowledge (good or bad).
rhodysurf 9y ago
This is exactly what S&T contracts from the DOD are like. Technically there are no deliverables, but if they dont like your work thy arent coming back to you.

gnicholas 9y ago

I think this is less of a concern with government funding, since in many cases the government doesn't care what you find — they just want you to do reliable research to see what the answers to relevant questions are. For example, if you say "I'm going to research the effect of eating lots of eggs on cholesterol", the government won't care what outcome you find/publish. They funded you because they want the truth to come out about the question you seek to answer. There are some topics where the government "has a dog in the fight" — but much of their research funding is for areas where they are truly agnostic. Google, on the other hand, only funded research related to their business. So they had an agenda, and all the parties knew it. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been able to fund this, or that this is any worse than other industry-funded research. Just that it seems some professors did not make the relevant disclosures, and there was a pretty strong incentive for professors not to bite the hand that feeds them.

GFischer 9y ago
Depends on the government of course. A friend was tasked with studying some supposedly more eco-friendly fuels (biodiesel) the government had invested a lot in, and he disclosed his initial findings that they weren't eco-friendly at all, and had his funding pulled and his research buried.
Godel_unicode 9y ago
You're comparing apples to oranges; Government not caring about negative/positive results and Google only funding things they care about. Are you implying that government funds research when the topic isn't something they care about, or that Google only likes positive results?
- gnicholas 9y ago
  No, I was responding to a comment that made a comparison between Google and government. I'm not saying the government never cares about the outcome of research, just that some (much? most?) of their funding goes to answering research questions where the government is agnostic.
  - caseysoftware 9y ago
    The government is made up of people who are fundamentally no better or worse than anyone else. Instead of accepting that anyone is an angel or devil, we should approach all results with a critical eye and push for reproducibility.
- jgalt212 9y ago
  Google like the tobacco and oil companies and soda companies, etc largely/only want to fund research that furthers their business and public policy aims. It's pretty simple. To equate the two, you'd have to say the USG only funds research that increases the size and scope of USG.
  - joshuamorton 9y ago
    (Disclosure that I work at google) Well, I mean there is that whole thing about how federal funding cannot go to gun violence research. So there are absolutely types of research that the government not just passively, but actively attempts to prevent. I'm not saying that Google is being a good guy here, but I also don't think you can so easily make the argument that the (US) government is any better.
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
> I think this is less of a concern with government funding, since in many cases the government doesn't care what you find — they just want you to do reliable research to see what the answers to relevant questions are. I think that's a somewhat idealistic view. From my reading (which may be out of date, the book was published in 1999), even the basic research funding from governments often has a technological goal in mind, and many of the savvier grant applicants know what that goal is.
magicalist 9y ago
> For example, if you say "I'm going to research the effect of eating lots of eggs on cholesterol", the government won't care what outcome you find/publish. They funded you because they want the truth to come out about the question you seek to answer. There are some topics where the government "has a dog in the fight" — but much of their research funding is for areas where they are truly agnostic. This isn't true at all for NSF and NIH grants, FWIW (and "I'm going to research the effect of eating lots of eggs on cholesterol" is not at all the level of specificity of proposals, which is part of this). It's cause for criticism about how they approve grants (null results are science, too), but it's also partly a natural result of having limited money and many many requests for it.
Spooky23 9y ago
There's different government grants. Basic research stuff isn't the same as a DARPA grant.
sapote 9y ago
That's absolutely not the case. Government-funded research review processes are actually more prescriptive and restrictive and political than Google is. I know this first hand. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Oddly, what ends up happening in a lot of government-funded research review systems is that those reviewing proposals are trying to guess "what kind of research would industry like to see?" so you get the worst of both worlds. Also, Google is largely funding CS research -- this isn't the kind of thing where there's a double blind study going on. It's usually work on a new algorithm or protocol or architecture or ... -- things that are constructive engineering tasks that can be replicated by others when the researchers' papers are published.

rayiner 9y ago

That's not true. Grant funding is a heavily bureaucratic process, with committees scoring proposals on matrices. The bureaucrats don't really care about your previous results (they have no personal investment), and even if they did, they don't really have a mechanism to hold them against you.

arebop 9y ago
Is it common for these committees to award grants to profs who (happen to) have a track record using grant funds to open doughnut shops rather than to research the topics mentioned in their previously-funded grant proposals?
- protomyth 9y ago
  From the grants I've dealt with, you better not in anyway spend the money (that includes line items for particular purposes) in a way inconsistent with the grant. Both the government and non-profits will blackball you so fast its amazing. The government might even have a talk with you. If you absolutely have to change the budget (does happen), you better have permission.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  The government doesn't give you spending money for you to do with as you please. There's a whole web of strings attached. If you open a donut shop with it, you're probably commuting an act of fraud.

Clanan 9y ago

That reflects the problems with research funding - they too incentivize "desired" results, rather than knowledge (good or bad).

rhodysurf 9y ago

This is exactly what S&T contracts from the DOD are like. Technically there are no deliverables, but if they dont like your work thy arent coming back to you.