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It's not that simple by a long shot. Minus any information or critical thinking, no one ever thinks of themselves as the bad guy. I'm an American and I can tell
by mwfunk 9y ago
It's not that simple by a long shot. Minus any information or critical thinking, no one ever thinks of themselves as the bad guy. I'm an American and I can tell you no end of past and present instances in our history in which we were the bad guys in a particular situation. I don't defend America if I think the US government is taking a morally, ethically, or intellectually wrong position, or if the US government does something really shitty. I vote against politicians who support such things and am not at all shy about criticizing America when it's appropriate. I hold Russians to the same standard as I hold myself and my fellow Americans, and expect them to be just as critical towards their own government when it's appropriate.
When people deflect criticism of their country by saying some other country is just as bad, they're totally missing the point. Saying that everyone does shitty things still doesn't make it OK for anyone to do shitty things. The German government was literally run by Nazis for over a decade and caused tens of millions of deaths, apparently for no reason other than idealism and narcissism. But that doesn't mean that I treat the German government of today as if they were secret Nazis all along, and that sure as hell doesn't mean it's OK for other countries to do what Germany did during WW2.
If all you've got is whataboutism, you are literally trying to defend indefensible behavior by pointing out instances of other countries engaging in indefensible behavior. This makes zero sense. I don't get it. It doesn't matter how many countries do horrible things, it doesn't make any of those horrible things OK. You are you, you are not your country. Think for yourself. OTOH, if you really think all those indefensible things that Russia (and America, at times) have done are OK, and you just want everyone to shut up about it so everyone can maintain the status quo, I honestly don't know what to say. I have zero common ground with such a person, they may as well come from another universe that I would give anything to not live in.
- ProAm 9y agoHindsight is always 20/20, definitely. In the present, in the act of behaving, taking action or pursing cause no one believes they are a bad guy. To my original point about the behavior of Russia (my response to the other poster, I just realized you were the other poster ...), Im sure they believe they are acting in their best interest for their own good. So to be shocked by Russia's behavior from their standpoint is useless, just as to evaluate the US's behavior over the past 10 years. No one seems themselves as a bad guy in the present.
- coldtea 9y ago>When people deflect criticism of their country by saying some other country is just as bad, they're totally missing the point. Saying that everyone does shitty things still doesn't make it OK for anyone to do shitty things. No, but if one's country does 10x the shitty things, they don't get to single out the other country as "evil". >If all you've got is whataboutism, you are literally trying to defend indefensible behavior by pointing out instances of other countries engaging in indefensible behavior. And if you don't see things in perspective and weight them, then you single out some "indefensible behavior", and ignore other because its by the side one happens to belong too. Countries, like humans, aren't perfect. But we don't get to pick and chose what's indefensible pointing to single person for what many do. Especially if we always conveniently point to the other person.
- mwfunk 9y agoWell sure. That's my whole point. If the US engages in what I consider immoral or otherwise indefensible behavior, the fact that I am an American has no bearing on how harshly I judge that behavior. I hold Russians to the same standards as I hold myself, therefore I expect them to denounce the actions of their government when appropriate. I don't give two shits whether or not some other country (including my own) has engaged in the same shitty behavior that some other country that I'm currently worried about is currently engaged in. Shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and I have zero tolerance for it. If Russia has mysterious patterns of Putin's political opponents getting imprisoned or murdered on a regular basis, the fact that some American politicians may have done something similarly shitty at some point had absolutely zero affect on me. Yeah, it's just as shitty when America does it. What's your fucking point? I'm speaking out as a human being, not as an American calling out Russia. Accusations of hypocrisy mean nothing to me, or anyone in this debate (I would hope at least). I don't complain about Russia because I think America is better, I complain about Russia because Putin is one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now.
- coldtea 9y agoThat's the thing though. If indeed "shitty behavior is shitty behavior no matter who's doing it, and [you] have zero tolerance for it" then he is not "one of the most colossal fucking assholes in the entire fucking world right now" but just an average, run of the mill, arsehole. Saying "shitty behavior is shitty, doesn't matter who is doing it" is meaningful if indeed those proclaiming don't in practice restrict their criticism to a single party. If people critique many times as much with much worse language X compared to their critique of Y (especially if Y does worse to begin with), then it shows the opposite: that some shitty behavior is more excused than others. Especially if the result of one kind of critique is just some tame protesting in the media and/or the streets ("Stop Bush's war", "Obama didn't do what he promised", "Trump is this and that", etc.), whereas the other criticism is aligned with and brings with it a whole military machine, sanctions against the country, diplomatic pressure, etc.