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I want proof. I only see numbers. Everything else is conjecture. Transparency in healthcare + Single payer (by the government) = Efficiency (see sources and e

I want proof. I only see numbers. Everything else is conjecture. Transparency in healthcare + Single payer (by the government) = Efficiency (see sources and explanation in my original comment) So yes, putting the US government in the middle is what I'm suggesting. Or is the US government not a leading force in fighting corruption anymore?

shortstuffsushi 9y ago
> I want proof. I only see numbers. Everything else is conjecture. But wait, is this not conjecture, since it doesn't currently exist? Sure, you have sources where it has worked, but the proof would only be implementing it here. > Or is the US government not a leading force in fighting corruption anymore? What? I don't understand what you're getting at here. My point isn't that the government is corrupt, it's that it's inefficient.
- galeaspablo 9y ago
  > But wait, is this not conjecture, since it doesn't currently exist? Sure, you have sources where it has worked, but the proof would only be implementing it here. Universal and transparently managed healthcare consistently gives more bang for buck. Note that I said "consistently", not just in a few places. Yes, obviously you can't know what's going to happen in the US until you try it. But if it has consistently worked around the world, the best guess is that it will work in the US as well. Surely your argument, can't be... "how can I know this ball is going to fall into the Earth, if I haven't dropped it yet". > What? I don't understand what you're getting at here. My point isn't that the government is corrupt, it's that it's inefficient. And my point is that transparency in healthcare + single payer makes the system efficient.
  - greeneggs 9y ago
    Are there other countries that have transitioned from a high-cost system like ours to a single-payer system? How quickly did their costs go down? For example (according to the first Google links for "usa/uk average doctor salary"), the average doctor salary in the UK is $128,500, compared to $189,000 in the US. How are we going to cut salaries by 32%? My guess is that there are salary discrepancies across the medical industry.
    - galeaspablo 9y ago
      > transitioned from a high-cost system like ours to a single-payer system? How quickly did their costs go down? I did not look this up. But I know one thing, eventually you will save money. I don't suppose that it would take longer than 20 years to save money, but I frankly don't know. Maybe you could look it up to expand on your point:-D > average doctor salary in the UK.. Compared to... In the US. That is not apples to apples. There are countries with lower and higher pay, both overall and relative. Plus you have think of differences in cost of living, taxation, malpractice insurance, and even their own medical insurance. Here's a link I found covering a bit of that. The chart would be the tldr. https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/05/28/are-u-s-doctors-paid-too-much/#12f473ced525 https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/05/28/are-u-...
krupan 9y ago
"Or is the US government not a leading force in fighting corruption anymore?" Um...
- galeaspablo 9y ago
  Put it in perspective (compared with every country on Earth). https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept...
  - 0xffff2 9y ago
    The US is 18/176 on the list on that page; not even in the top 10%. Personally, I would say the top 5% or so could reasonably be called leaders. Where would you draw the line?
  - krupan 9y ago
    Interesting. Why is the U.S. less corrupt than most? Would giving the U.S. government a big bump in the amount of power it weilds in the form of single payer health care improve the curruption situation or make it worse?
  - galeaspablo 9y ago
    0xffff2 - that's correct. Personally I am more lenient, given that my country of birth struggles. But in the context of the conversation, I think #18 is good enough to make the cutoff for single payer. After all, other countries with lower healthcare transparency are still more efficient with their universal systems. krupan - I don't have the data for what has happened with transparency when countries implemented universal healthcare. So I don't have the answer for that.
0xffff2 9y ago
>Or is the US government not a leading force in fighting corruption anymore? Was it ever?
- galeaspablo 9y ago
  In the grand scheme of things, yes. https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept... http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm http://www.espn.co.uk/espn/feature/story/_/id/14767250/the-exclusive-story-how-feds-took-fifa http://www.espn.co.uk/espn/feature/story/_/id/14767250/the-e...

shortstuffsushi 9y ago

> I want proof. I only see numbers. Everything else is conjecture. But wait, is this not conjecture, since it doesn't currently exist? Sure, you have sources where it has worked, but the proof would only be implementing it here. > Or is the US government not a leading force in fighting corruption anymore? What? I don't understand what you're getting at here. My point isn't that the government is corrupt, it's that it's inefficient.

galeaspablo 9y ago
> But wait, is this not conjecture, since it doesn't currently exist? Sure, you have sources where it has worked, but the proof would only be implementing it here. Universal and transparently managed healthcare consistently gives more bang for buck. Note that I said "consistently", not just in a few places. Yes, obviously you can't know what's going to happen in the US until you try it. But if it has consistently worked around the world, the best guess is that it will work in the US as well. Surely your argument, can't be... "how can I know this ball is going to fall into the Earth, if I haven't dropped it yet". > What? I don't understand what you're getting at here. My point isn't that the government is corrupt, it's that it's inefficient. And my point is that transparency in healthcare + single payer makes the system efficient.
- greeneggs 9y ago
  Are there other countries that have transitioned from a high-cost system like ours to a single-payer system? How quickly did their costs go down? For example (according to the first Google links for "usa/uk average doctor salary"), the average doctor salary in the UK is $128,500, compared to $189,000 in the US. How are we going to cut salaries by 32%? My guess is that there are salary discrepancies across the medical industry.
  - galeaspablo 9y ago
    > transitioned from a high-cost system like ours to a single-payer system? How quickly did their costs go down? I did not look this up. But I know one thing, eventually you will save money. I don't suppose that it would take longer than 20 years to save money, but I frankly don't know. Maybe you could look it up to expand on your point:-D > average doctor salary in the UK.. Compared to... In the US. That is not apples to apples. There are countries with lower and higher pay, both overall and relative. Plus you have think of differences in cost of living, taxation, malpractice insurance, and even their own medical insurance. Here's a link I found covering a bit of that. The chart would be the tldr. https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/05/28/are-u-s-doctors-paid-too-much/#12f473ced525 https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/05/28/are-u-...

krupan 9y ago

"Or is the US government not a leading force in fighting corruption anymore?" Um...

galeaspablo 9y ago
Put it in perspective (compared with every country on Earth). https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept...
- 0xffff2 9y ago
  The US is 18/176 on the list on that page; not even in the top 10%. Personally, I would say the top 5% or so could reasonably be called leaders. Where would you draw the line?
- krupan 9y ago
  Interesting. Why is the U.S. less corrupt than most? Would giving the U.S. government a big bump in the amount of power it weilds in the form of single payer health care improve the curruption situation or make it worse?
- galeaspablo 9y ago
  0xffff2 - that's correct. Personally I am more lenient, given that my country of birth struggles. But in the context of the conversation, I think #18 is good enough to make the cutoff for single payer. After all, other countries with lower healthcare transparency are still more efficient with their universal systems. krupan - I don't have the data for what has happened with transparency when countries implemented universal healthcare. So I don't have the answer for that.

0xffff2 9y ago

>Or is the US government not a leading force in fighting corruption anymore? Was it ever?

galeaspablo 9y ago
In the grand scheme of things, yes. https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept... http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm http://www.espn.co.uk/espn/feature/story/_/id/14767250/the-exclusive-story-how-feds-took-fifa http://www.espn.co.uk/espn/feature/story/_/id/14767250/the-e...