6 ms·

In a large firm, a lawyer isn't going to go through the active cases for every partner in the firm when choosing where to take clients for dinner.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
It seems a bit naive, then, to assume that the people you're litigating against will civilly keep their anger in Lawyer-Land and never hold a grudge in real life.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  There seems to be a lot of that at play in white-shoe firms. Perhaps less so now than when those positions were guaranteed for life, but some of the highest-powered lawyers I've known didn't have much intuitive sense that they were actually affecting people.
  - notyourday 9y ago
    There's a fundamental misunderstanding of reality in legal profession. It is somewhat akin to 18th and 19th century conflicts - two armies line up against each other and both sides shoot. Strangely even though the last man standing won the decorum mattered. That is until someone had a brilliant idea to shoot from the laying down position. Or from the bushes. Or without wearing uniforms.
    - lostboys67 9y ago
      In the Napoleonic wars Wellingtons order for troops to wait lying down on a reverse slope to avoid cannon fire was considered unsporting
      - bluGill 9y ago
        Up until about the US civil war guns were inaccurate enough that you could stand in lines and shoot at each other with a chance to live. As such the old battle lines designed for swords were not a horrible strategy (not to be confused with good). By the US civil war rifles advanced to the point where you could shoot a target and have confidence that it would die. Wars that happened around the US civil war were suddenly and unexpected deadly which caused all generals (who watch wars between insignificant countries which the US was at the time) to be horrified and come up with new tactics without regard for previous ideas of what was sporting.
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      It's a fundamental misunderstanding of 18th and 19th century infantry tactics to say that they fought that way out of a sense of decorum and that no one had the idea of using concealment or cover. They fought in massed formations because it actually was the most effective way of fighting with the technology of the time. Infantry troops that strayed too far from their formations were extremely vulnerable to attack by more mobile cavalry troops. It was only in massed formations that they were able to effectively repel cavalry attacks.
      - notyourday 9y ago
        Oh rubbish. See Napoleon's excursion into Russia. See Suvorov's crossing of the Alps.
        TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Not seeing how either of those instances disprove my point.
- tareqak 9y ago
  I now have a question about the original account: did the lawyers / legal firm in question: 1. still represent their client (the vegan protestors) with the same utmost care that one would expect in hiring any legal team? 2. politely close the contractual obligation to represent and refund some or all of their fees? 3. just did a poor job of representation after this incident , but still bill the same hours and other fees? Edited to correct formatting
  - notyourday 9y ago
    (2) was the closest. Law firms demanded the retainer payment which vegans did not have so the lawyers withdrew.
- mendelk 9y ago
  I talked to an Oracle lawyer a few months ago, and told him their lawsuit just makes Oracle look bad. The lawyer was dismissive, and tried to explain how it's silly how people take lawsuits personally, and talked about how layers _understand_ that lawsuits aren't personal, and that they are still friends outside the court. I'm sure a lawyer can "understand" how lawsuits aren't actually something personal at all, but lawyers really seem to be the _only_ people who "understand" that. -- Linus Torvalds [0] [0] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2016-August/003580.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/...
  - arkh 9y ago
    > “The personal, as everyone’s so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm you or those you care about, take it personally. Get angry. The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs, hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the creatures of power slide from under it with a wink and a grin. If you want justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it personal. Do as much damage as you can. Get your message across. That way, you stand a better chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered dangerous marks the difference - the only difference in their eyes - between players and little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement, your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it’s just business, it’s politics, it’s the way of the world, it’s a tough life and that it’s nothing personal. Well, fuck them. Make it personal.” ― Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
    - chris_wot 9y ago
      Yup, I've had to do that. I've basically not given in, and have slowly but surely ground down the people who should have been investigating and dealing with my issues. I'll succeed from sheer bloody mindedness.
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

It seems a bit naive, then, to assume that the people you're litigating against will civilly keep their anger in Lawyer-Land and never hold a grudge in real life.

Bartweiss 9y ago
There seems to be a lot of that at play in white-shoe firms. Perhaps less so now than when those positions were guaranteed for life, but some of the highest-powered lawyers I've known didn't have much intuitive sense that they were actually affecting people.
- notyourday 9y ago
  There's a fundamental misunderstanding of reality in legal profession. It is somewhat akin to 18th and 19th century conflicts - two armies line up against each other and both sides shoot. Strangely even though the last man standing won the decorum mattered. That is until someone had a brilliant idea to shoot from the laying down position. Or from the bushes. Or without wearing uniforms.
  - lostboys67 9y ago
    In the Napoleonic wars Wellingtons order for troops to wait lying down on a reverse slope to avoid cannon fire was considered unsporting
    - bluGill 9y ago
      Up until about the US civil war guns were inaccurate enough that you could stand in lines and shoot at each other with a chance to live. As such the old battle lines designed for swords were not a horrible strategy (not to be confused with good). By the US civil war rifles advanced to the point where you could shoot a target and have confidence that it would die. Wars that happened around the US civil war were suddenly and unexpected deadly which caused all generals (who watch wars between insignificant countries which the US was at the time) to be horrified and come up with new tactics without regard for previous ideas of what was sporting.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    It's a fundamental misunderstanding of 18th and 19th century infantry tactics to say that they fought that way out of a sense of decorum and that no one had the idea of using concealment or cover. They fought in massed formations because it actually was the most effective way of fighting with the technology of the time. Infantry troops that strayed too far from their formations were extremely vulnerable to attack by more mobile cavalry troops. It was only in massed formations that they were able to effectively repel cavalry attacks.
    - notyourday 9y ago
      Oh rubbish. See Napoleon's excursion into Russia. See Suvorov's crossing of the Alps.
      - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Not seeing how either of those instances disprove my point.
tareqak 9y ago
I now have a question about the original account: did the lawyers / legal firm in question: 1. still represent their client (the vegan protestors) with the same utmost care that one would expect in hiring any legal team? 2. politely close the contractual obligation to represent and refund some or all of their fees? 3. just did a poor job of representation after this incident , but still bill the same hours and other fees? Edited to correct formatting
- notyourday 9y ago
  (2) was the closest. Law firms demanded the retainer payment which vegans did not have so the lawyers withdrew.
mendelk 9y ago
I talked to an Oracle lawyer a few months ago, and told him their lawsuit just makes Oracle look bad. The lawyer was dismissive, and tried to explain how it's silly how people take lawsuits personally, and talked about how layers _understand_ that lawsuits aren't personal, and that they are still friends outside the court. I'm sure a lawyer can "understand" how lawsuits aren't actually something personal at all, but lawyers really seem to be the _only_ people who "understand" that. -- Linus Torvalds [0] [0] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2016-August/003580.html https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/...
- arkh 9y ago
  > “The personal, as everyone’s so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm you or those you care about, take it personally. Get angry. The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs, hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the creatures of power slide from under it with a wink and a grin. If you want justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it personal. Do as much damage as you can. Get your message across. That way, you stand a better chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered dangerous marks the difference - the only difference in their eyes - between players and little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement, your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it’s just business, it’s politics, it’s the way of the world, it’s a tough life and that it’s nothing personal. Well, fuck them. Make it personal.” ― Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
  - chris_wot 9y ago
    Yup, I've had to do that. I've basically not given in, and have slowly but surely ground down the people who should have been investigating and dealing with my issues. I'll succeed from sheer bloody mindedness.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago