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What you mentioned is a typical misunderstanding. The economic liberalization didn't happen in most part of China until the 90s. For example, Shanghai didn't st

What you mentioned is a typical misunderstanding. The economic liberalization didn't happen in most part of China until the 90s. For example, Shanghai didn't start until 1991, Beijing was another few years later than that. Even for those two first tier cities, many stuff considered normal in a market economy didn't happen until 10-15 years ago, e.g. buying a property to live in or for investment didn't become mainstream in Shanghai until 2003. I'd argue that GFW created millions of experienced software engineers for China. It is the assets required for such a developing country. If the market was dominated by Google/Twitter/Fb, how many of them are willing to have their core R&D positions in China? Let's make it no mistake - as a Chinese national, the company need to get your US export license to work on any project that involves stuff like encryption or high performance computing. That export license takes ages to get and there is no guarantee to get it. To send you to the US for meetings/training, you'd be subject to the Mantis Check managed by FBI, it can take anywhere between a few months to a few years to get a 12 months US short term visa. Now also consider how those companies do their taxes in foreign countries. How much they are going to contribute to the local economy? Just look at how other free countries are attacking their practices. http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/australia-now-officially-has-a-google-tax-diverted-profits-tax-laws-pass-parliament-20170328-gv83va.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/australia-now-off... If you consider all these, it will be clear that Chinese were pushed to the corner to defend the chance/right to develop their country/industry. For me, it is really a choice on whether to kill China's Internet industry or not. Chinese didn't kill it, they kicked out Google/Twitter/Fb etc and build their own Baidu/Alibaba/Tencent/JD/Didi/360, that is all.

mikeash 9y ago
I don't see how what I said is a misunderstanding or how these facts support your claim. China's GDP growth has been high for 40 years. There's no possible way that the GFW created this, given that it wasn't around until about halfway through this period. Even if you say that it somehow doesn't count until the 90s, it still doesn't line up, since the GFW started out as purely political censorship and they weren't wholesale blocking foreign competitors until well into the 2000s.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  Please look at my post again, I said GFW _helped_ to create the recent economic development. Of course the economy of a country like China can not be improved single-handedly by a system or by a single sector. I further pointed out that GFW ensured that all core Internet infrastructures used in China is designed/developed in China, that led to the creation of a Dev community with millions of experienced engineers. Do you believe that such a professional community is a huge asset for a developing country?
  - mikeash 9y ago
    How could it help to create something that was created long before it? As I said in my original comment, the best you could say is that the GFW helped sustain it recently, which seems like it might be what you're actually trying to say here.
    - dis-sys 9y ago
      The boom of China's Internet sector didn't happen until ~2008.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        I would not interpret "one of the most dramatic periods of economic development in history" as referring to the boom of China's internet sector starting in 2008. If you intend to give credit to the GWF for that particular thing, then by all means do so. But that is not at all what I got from your original comment, nor your first reply.
        dis-sys 9y ago
        >I would not interpret "one of the most dramatic periods of economic development in history" as referring to the boom of China's internet sector starting in 2008. The economic development in the last decade can be safely regarded as the most dramatic period in history, it added ~40% of US GDP in that period. The Internet sector is of course one of the major driving forces for that. > If you intend to give credit to the GWF for that particular thing, then by all means do so. But that is not at all what I got from your original comment, nor your first reply. Sorry to get you confused but it is pretty clear to me that 1) GFW is being built/maintained as a tool for protectionism agendas, 2) it blocked most western Internet services to allow Chinese Internet sector to grow faster in the last decade, 3) with such help from the GFW, the Chinese Internet sector managed to get to where it is now and helped to fuel the economic growth in that period.

mikeash 9y ago

I don't see how what I said is a misunderstanding or how these facts support your claim. China's GDP growth has been high for 40 years. There's no possible way that the GFW created this, given that it wasn't around until about halfway through this period. Even if you say that it somehow doesn't count until the 90s, it still doesn't line up, since the GFW started out as purely political censorship and they weren't wholesale blocking foreign competitors until well into the 2000s.

dis-sys 9y ago
Please look at my post again, I said GFW _helped_ to create the recent economic development. Of course the economy of a country like China can not be improved single-handedly by a system or by a single sector. I further pointed out that GFW ensured that all core Internet infrastructures used in China is designed/developed in China, that led to the creation of a Dev community with millions of experienced engineers. Do you believe that such a professional community is a huge asset for a developing country?
- mikeash 9y ago
  How could it help to create something that was created long before it? As I said in my original comment, the best you could say is that the GFW helped sustain it recently, which seems like it might be what you're actually trying to say here.
  - dis-sys 9y ago
    The boom of China's Internet sector didn't happen until ~2008.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I would not interpret "one of the most dramatic periods of economic development in history" as referring to the boom of China's internet sector starting in 2008. If you intend to give credit to the GWF for that particular thing, then by all means do so. But that is not at all what I got from your original comment, nor your first reply.
      - dis-sys 9y ago
        >I would not interpret "one of the most dramatic periods of economic development in history" as referring to the boom of China's internet sector starting in 2008. The economic development in the last decade can be safely regarded as the most dramatic period in history, it added ~40% of US GDP in that period. The Internet sector is of course one of the major driving forces for that. > If you intend to give credit to the GWF for that particular thing, then by all means do so. But that is not at all what I got from your original comment, nor your first reply. Sorry to get you confused but it is pretty clear to me that 1) GFW is being built/maintained as a tool for protectionism agendas, 2) it blocked most western Internet services to allow Chinese Internet sector to grow faster in the last decade, 3) with such help from the GFW, the Chinese Internet sector managed to get to where it is now and helped to fuel the economic growth in that period.