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touché... I did not know that before...thanks for sharing... But the whole point is about a fair income distribution in a society... If you think that as a P

touché... I did not know that before...thanks for sharing... But the whole point is about a fair income distribution in a society... If you think that as a Pharaoh, without contributing much to a society but could still get all the best things -- including the pyramids -- provided by the people in the country, by telling them that his ruling is god's will -- which does not seem to hold much truth in it...I just feel that this is not justifiable... This is a similar thing happening in China right now -- with all the propaganda and censorship and limitation on what people could read and talk at their own will, and hence influence the way people think and reason... If the pyramids were not built by slaves, then there were plenty of other magnificent monuments or grand palaces or great economic achievements that were the labor of masses of hard working coolies who never got what they really deserve...

dis-sys 9y ago
First thing first, I didn't downvote you or anyone else - because I simply don't have enough karma to downvote anyone. Please check my public profile before pointing fingers, that would be a much more civilised move. I was educated in the west, with PhD from the top ranking university. I spent 12 years living in your society and do understand where you came from. The problem is you seem to be forcing your definition of freedom onto many people. You can value your free speech, your democratic system etc etc, I'd perfectly happy to respect that. However, it it seems that you refuse to even acknowledge the cultural differences widely observed. To give you a quick hint, majority vote is the preferred way in the west, but apparently Chinese and many Asian cultures value more on consensus based on compromises. Your arguments on "propaganda and censorship" are quite rude because you are basically arguing that Chinese living in China can not figure out what is truth and what is propaganda, you are basically suggesting that Chinese as a population of 1.4B can be easily manipulated. It is also extremely funny that someone who has never ever lived in China for long term is now jumping up and down lecturing people how bad is the situation in China. Tell me how this is not the definition of arrogance!
- deleted 9y ago
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- rini17 9y ago
  Cultural or ideological differences are never good reason to cut all communication. It will backfire(economically, psychologically) and you seem to refuse to even acknowledge this basic fact. And I am not writing this as some disrespecting westerner, but as Eastern European. Having to figure out what is truth and what is propaganda in non-free-speech environment has severely morally stunted our nations, and I can't believe some "consensus culture" can avoid that.
  - dis-sys 9y ago
    The link and communication is always there and it is strong. I spent 12 years living/studying/working in the west, such experience is shared by millions of other Chinese in my generation. Most western media are freely accessible from China, e.g. BBC/CNN/Foxnews. Comparing today's China to eastern Europe back in the USSR days is not a good idea, e.g. did USSR encourage its youths to study in the west? China has been doing this in the last 39 years. It is also questionable whether the so called non-free-speech environment is the same here - not judging what people can/can not do in those old USSR days as I don't know anything about it, but you can openly criticise CCP in China as long as the criticism is not coordinated, I have been doing that for ages, never got into any trouble.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- 68c12c16 9y ago
  > First thing first, I didn't downvote you or anyone else - because > I simply don't have enough karma to downvote anyone. > Please check my public profile before pointing fingers, that > would be a much more civilised move. I apologize if my words made you think that I was saying that you double downvoted me...I was just trying to put my observation in its context...but I did not mean you. > The problem is you seem to be forcing your definition of > freedom onto many people. You can value your free speech, > your democratic system etc etc, I'd perfectly happy to respect > that. However, it it seems that you refuse to even acknowledge > the cultural differences widely observed. To give you a quick > hint, majority vote is the preferred way in the west, but apparently > Chinese and many Asian cultures value more on consensus > based on compromises. Thanks for stating your argument in details... The meta-assumption that you are making in your argument is that there exists a general will in both western society and Chinese society -- which is equivalent to saying that there is a higher intelligent wisdom above all the western people or all the eastern people, represents their collective will and thus having a single voice that "they want democracy" or "they want totalitarian"... This assumption is too big to discuss here, but from what I observe, many people in China are trying to get across the Great Fire Wall while another group of people (i.e. the government) are trying to forbid the first group to do so, which seems to me is hardly a consensus, not to mention any compromise... > Your arguments on "propaganda and censorship" are quite rude > because you are basically arguing that Chinese living in China > can not figure out what is truth and what is propaganda, > you are basically suggesting that Chinese as a population > of 1.4B can be easily manipulated. Well, I am afraid so...Or, has anyone figured out how many people starved to death during the Great Famine between 1959 to 1961, or how many students had been shot dead during the TianAnMen square protest in 1989 -- and that does not seem to be a consensus nor a compromise... And from my own experience, many young people born after 1990 in China even do not know that TianAnMen square protest and the shooting even have ever happened...And what about the dramatic increase in the number of people that have been diagnosed with lung cancer or other types of life-threatening illness as a result of the air pollution caused by profit-driven manufacturing planning? It seems to me that you are fairly funny, and rude, to speak for 1.4 billion individuals, without a validated assumption on the very existence of "general will", without any action or even intention to obtain their opinion, while enjoying all the freedom of speech and convenience of western life, and make a speech that all the 1.4 billion individuals have a consensus based on their compromise -- but more to the fact, a self-narcissus based on other people's extraordinary sacrifice...

dis-sys 9y ago

First thing first, I didn't downvote you or anyone else - because I simply don't have enough karma to downvote anyone. Please check my public profile before pointing fingers, that would be a much more civilised move. I was educated in the west, with PhD from the top ranking university. I spent 12 years living in your society and do understand where you came from. The problem is you seem to be forcing your definition of freedom onto many people. You can value your free speech, your democratic system etc etc, I'd perfectly happy to respect that. However, it it seems that you refuse to even acknowledge the cultural differences widely observed. To give you a quick hint, majority vote is the preferred way in the west, but apparently Chinese and many Asian cultures value more on consensus based on compromises. Your arguments on "propaganda and censorship" are quite rude because you are basically arguing that Chinese living in China can not figure out what is truth and what is propaganda, you are basically suggesting that Chinese as a population of 1.4B can be easily manipulated. It is also extremely funny that someone who has never ever lived in China for long term is now jumping up and down lecturing people how bad is the situation in China. Tell me how this is not the definition of arrogance!

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rini17 9y ago
Cultural or ideological differences are never good reason to cut all communication. It will backfire(economically, psychologically) and you seem to refuse to even acknowledge this basic fact. And I am not writing this as some disrespecting westerner, but as Eastern European. Having to figure out what is truth and what is propaganda in non-free-speech environment has severely morally stunted our nations, and I can't believe some "consensus culture" can avoid that.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  The link and communication is always there and it is strong. I spent 12 years living/studying/working in the west, such experience is shared by millions of other Chinese in my generation. Most western media are freely accessible from China, e.g. BBC/CNN/Foxnews. Comparing today's China to eastern Europe back in the USSR days is not a good idea, e.g. did USSR encourage its youths to study in the west? China has been doing this in the last 39 years. It is also questionable whether the so called non-free-speech environment is the same here - not judging what people can/can not do in those old USSR days as I don't know anything about it, but you can openly criticise CCP in China as long as the criticism is not coordinated, I have been doing that for ages, never got into any trouble.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
68c12c16 9y ago
> First thing first, I didn't downvote you or anyone else - because > I simply don't have enough karma to downvote anyone. > Please check my public profile before pointing fingers, that > would be a much more civilised move. I apologize if my words made you think that I was saying that you double downvoted me...I was just trying to put my observation in its context...but I did not mean you. > The problem is you seem to be forcing your definition of > freedom onto many people. You can value your free speech, > your democratic system etc etc, I'd perfectly happy to respect > that. However, it it seems that you refuse to even acknowledge > the cultural differences widely observed. To give you a quick > hint, majority vote is the preferred way in the west, but apparently > Chinese and many Asian cultures value more on consensus > based on compromises. Thanks for stating your argument in details... The meta-assumption that you are making in your argument is that there exists a general will in both western society and Chinese society -- which is equivalent to saying that there is a higher intelligent wisdom above all the western people or all the eastern people, represents their collective will and thus having a single voice that "they want democracy" or "they want totalitarian"... This assumption is too big to discuss here, but from what I observe, many people in China are trying to get across the Great Fire Wall while another group of people (i.e. the government) are trying to forbid the first group to do so, which seems to me is hardly a consensus, not to mention any compromise... > Your arguments on "propaganda and censorship" are quite rude > because you are basically arguing that Chinese living in China > can not figure out what is truth and what is propaganda, > you are basically suggesting that Chinese as a population > of 1.4B can be easily manipulated. Well, I am afraid so...Or, has anyone figured out how many people starved to death during the Great Famine between 1959 to 1961, or how many students had been shot dead during the TianAnMen square protest in 1989 -- and that does not seem to be a consensus nor a compromise... And from my own experience, many young people born after 1990 in China even do not know that TianAnMen square protest and the shooting even have ever happened...And what about the dramatic increase in the number of people that have been diagnosed with lung cancer or other types of life-threatening illness as a result of the air pollution caused by profit-driven manufacturing planning? It seems to me that you are fairly funny, and rude, to speak for 1.4 billion individuals, without a validated assumption on the very existence of "general will", without any action or even intention to obtain their opinion, while enjoying all the freedom of speech and convenience of western life, and make a speech that all the 1.4 billion individuals have a consensus based on their compromise -- but more to the fact, a self-narcissus based on other people's extraordinary sacrifice...