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No it's really not. I've been using windows since 1992 across tens of vendors and it's the same story. It has literally never changed. I find Lenovo to be the l

No it's really not. I've been using windows since 1992 across tens of vendors and it's the same story. It has literally never changed. I find Lenovo to be the least crap. I was 50/50 Linux/windows dev. Windows dev is dead for me now (my hair is growing back). Tasks are now python, Postgres, ansible, vim, ssh and a browser and not a lot else. I've worked with Linux for about 18 years as well for ref.

ivan_gammel 9y ago
So, no any special needs. It's quite strange to see such judgements from a software engineer about a tool that serves many other people very well (I'm 80/20 on Windows/Linux for more than 20 years and have very different experience, for example). Probably, it's the matter of personal preferences, not of the quality?
- staofbur 9y ago
  It is definitely a matter of quality because I support a team with the same issues. I see the cumulative cost of quality issues daily.
  - ivan_gammel 9y ago
    Well, at least since you mentioned Lenovo, this vendor does have problems with firmware on its devices. On the other side, neither of my colleagues had ever problems with their working environment on Windows (I've developed a lot of very different products on Java, which indeed requires a lot of automation and containerization these days, so it's an multi-OS environment by its nature). There's something wrong either with how you use it or which hardware do you choose. Probably, this OS is simply not for your style of work, just like Linux is not for others. I don't think it's the OS fault.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    I would disagree, having been a Linux zealot between 1995 and 2004, nowadays doing mostly Windows, Web and Android development. Just keep a GNU/Linux netbook around for traveling. The only machines I had issues where the ones managed by local IT, with their strange images. The ones managed and installed by me seldom had problems.
    - staofbur 9y ago
      I'd say the ones I have managed have less problems but not seldom had problems :)
  - indemnity 9y ago
    Switched our team off Microsoft platforms entirely. All developers are on macOS now, targeting JVM on Linux. Refreshing to be able to participate in a real ecosystem, instead of having to write the .NET version/binding for every damn useful piece of OSS out there. Plus, working for an 80,000 employee company, IT can't screw up macOS as much as they did their Windows image, which does wonders for productivity. The last straw was a McAfee update on Windows which causes every executable launched to take 45 seconds the first time it launches. Last time I checked, IT still hadn't figured out how to fix it for real, after months, and resorted to exclusions to "fix" it. Think how many times a developer builds an executable and needs to launch it....yeah. I know, I need to quit, but they pay very, very well and it's a pretty low stress job that's really helping me hammer my mortgage. With proper tooling like I have now, it's a pretty good position that leaves a lot in the tank for learning and experimentation.
    - staofbur 9y ago
      This is normal corporate IT on windows. The biggest battle I have is with operations teams who require that you don't have administrative privileges on windows dev machines. This cripples development teams instantly because you just can't do that. I tried to push the organisation I work with currently in that direction but they haven't quite got over the Stockholm syndrome of being a Microsoft certified partner yet or admit that a lot of infrastructure and platform investments were bad ones now. I'd take low stress and good pay over most things ;)
      - hvidgaard 9y ago
        > The biggest battle I have is with operations teams who require that you don't have administrative privileges on windows dev machines. Fortunately I do not have this battle. But if I did, I would simply tell operations boss that unless my developers get admin access in their dev environment, they have to have staff dedicated to my team, ready 24/7/365 to serve them. Weekends, holidays, christmas - all the time, no exceptions.
    - p2t2p 9y ago
      > IT can't screw up macOS as much as they did their Windows image Oh trust me they can. How about to hang while showing login screen because AD server doesn't respond? MacOS auto reboots in such occasion. How about screw your keychain with their scripts completely when you change you password? I need to re-login into iCloud every single time I change my password because of that. How about hang before even getting to login screen because AD doesn't respond? Broken file permissions and groups because of AD thing? Unexpected CPU spike to 100% because some IT thing does something in background? Constant notifications even OVER LOGIN SCREEN about "Your sleep time is too long" and so on. I'm now just afraid to install updates because it'll involve reboot and next reboot IT scripts will screw up something else and I'll need to spend half a day fixing it.
  - dm319 9y ago
    I can't understand the number of people on this thread who appear to be very tech-savvy, but don't sympathise with your issues. I've been off windows for several years, but recently needed to install Windows 10 on a machine for a family member. I ran into two utterly frustrating issues. The first was no ethernet after moving the machine to their house (after reinstalling all sorts of drivers I discovered it was due to assigned IP addresses and the fast-shutdown feature of Windows). The second was random crashes between 30mins and 1hour after boot up. Of course, the occasional issue on linux occurs (though not really at this scale) - but what is worse is that you aren't given the tools or the means to troubleshoot them. There were at least 3 or 4 published articles about the second problem (which was due to a failing anniversary update - also difficult to troubleshoot as it doesn't show up as a process)- but none of them were actually useful for troubleshooting - they just gave '7 things you can do...', one of which was rebooting... (here's an example of one https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-anniversary-update-keeps-freezing-heres-how-fix-problem https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-anniversary-update... - they are useless!) I think we need to define a new disease because we are both clearly suffering from it: Post-Windows Traumatic Stress Disorder Symptoms: unexpected and disproportionate rage at slightest OS attempt to override what they are doing or present them with adverts. occasional bouts of unexplained anger Signs: weary-looking. withdraws when presented with Windows laptop. Investigations: while undergoing windows update process, patient demonstrates strong negative emotional signs, i.e. sobbing, aggression Treatment: if caught early, complete abstinence from windows. After several years they may start to consider trying out the latest version because it apparently forgoes the need for Windows. this is the point of relapse for most people. if caught late (i.e. >10 years exposure), the prognosis is poor. you can try flooding therapy with Windows, complete abstinence from linux/MacOSX. eventually they may accept the subordinate position to their operating system and be able to share their happy experience of windows with their peers.
    - staofbur 9y ago
      25 years windows here. I suspect it is some variety of Stockholm syndrome or the fact that several years of "problem attrition" as I call it numbs you to the fact that it isn't a routine thing facing weird issues every day. These are accepted as the norm in windows development teams. The hilarious thing is the occasional thing I get which is "what do you mean it only too ten minutes?" because people are trained to think that certain things take at least a day and then subconsciously avoid doing them because they don't want to have to explain where that time is going. I'm going to write a book on this one day. As for Linux issues, the ONLY issue I've had this year so far is duplicity consuming too much RAM and crashing on a filesystem with tens of thousands of inodes used. This was a relatively easy fix as well. A two line python change. I haven't submitted it yet as a patch because they patched it upstream already when someone else fixed it. Just waiting for it to trickle down to the vendor's repos.
jmkni 9y ago
Maybe you're just not very good at using Windows? I don't have these issues.
- staofbur 9y ago
  I've been building windows applications, right down from Win32/ATL/MFC/C++/DCOM and up to C#/WPF/ASP.Net for 25 years and managed teams of 80+ developers. I can drive windows in my sleep. It's not that. It's a fundamental quality issue caused by a combination of tangled complexity and framework schizophrenia.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

ivan_gammel 9y ago

So, no any special needs. It's quite strange to see such judgements from a software engineer about a tool that serves many other people very well (I'm 80/20 on Windows/Linux for more than 20 years and have very different experience, for example). Probably, it's the matter of personal preferences, not of the quality?

staofbur 9y ago
It is definitely a matter of quality because I support a team with the same issues. I see the cumulative cost of quality issues daily.
- ivan_gammel 9y ago
  Well, at least since you mentioned Lenovo, this vendor does have problems with firmware on its devices. On the other side, neither of my colleagues had ever problems with their working environment on Windows (I've developed a lot of very different products on Java, which indeed requires a lot of automation and containerization these days, so it's an multi-OS environment by its nature). There's something wrong either with how you use it or which hardware do you choose. Probably, this OS is simply not for your style of work, just like Linux is not for others. I don't think it's the OS fault.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  I would disagree, having been a Linux zealot between 1995 and 2004, nowadays doing mostly Windows, Web and Android development. Just keep a GNU/Linux netbook around for traveling. The only machines I had issues where the ones managed by local IT, with their strange images. The ones managed and installed by me seldom had problems.
  - staofbur 9y ago
    I'd say the ones I have managed have less problems but not seldom had problems :)
- indemnity 9y ago
  Switched our team off Microsoft platforms entirely. All developers are on macOS now, targeting JVM on Linux. Refreshing to be able to participate in a real ecosystem, instead of having to write the .NET version/binding for every damn useful piece of OSS out there. Plus, working for an 80,000 employee company, IT can't screw up macOS as much as they did their Windows image, which does wonders for productivity. The last straw was a McAfee update on Windows which causes every executable launched to take 45 seconds the first time it launches. Last time I checked, IT still hadn't figured out how to fix it for real, after months, and resorted to exclusions to "fix" it. Think how many times a developer builds an executable and needs to launch it....yeah. I know, I need to quit, but they pay very, very well and it's a pretty low stress job that's really helping me hammer my mortgage. With proper tooling like I have now, it's a pretty good position that leaves a lot in the tank for learning and experimentation.
  - staofbur 9y ago
    This is normal corporate IT on windows. The biggest battle I have is with operations teams who require that you don't have administrative privileges on windows dev machines. This cripples development teams instantly because you just can't do that. I tried to push the organisation I work with currently in that direction but they haven't quite got over the Stockholm syndrome of being a Microsoft certified partner yet or admit that a lot of infrastructure and platform investments were bad ones now. I'd take low stress and good pay over most things ;)
    - hvidgaard 9y ago
      > The biggest battle I have is with operations teams who require that you don't have administrative privileges on windows dev machines. Fortunately I do not have this battle. But if I did, I would simply tell operations boss that unless my developers get admin access in their dev environment, they have to have staff dedicated to my team, ready 24/7/365 to serve them. Weekends, holidays, christmas - all the time, no exceptions.
  - p2t2p 9y ago
    > IT can't screw up macOS as much as they did their Windows image Oh trust me they can. How about to hang while showing login screen because AD server doesn't respond? MacOS auto reboots in such occasion. How about screw your keychain with their scripts completely when you change you password? I need to re-login into iCloud every single time I change my password because of that. How about hang before even getting to login screen because AD doesn't respond? Broken file permissions and groups because of AD thing? Unexpected CPU spike to 100% because some IT thing does something in background? Constant notifications even OVER LOGIN SCREEN about "Your sleep time is too long" and so on. I'm now just afraid to install updates because it'll involve reboot and next reboot IT scripts will screw up something else and I'll need to spend half a day fixing it.
- dm319 9y ago
  I can't understand the number of people on this thread who appear to be very tech-savvy, but don't sympathise with your issues. I've been off windows for several years, but recently needed to install Windows 10 on a machine for a family member. I ran into two utterly frustrating issues. The first was no ethernet after moving the machine to their house (after reinstalling all sorts of drivers I discovered it was due to assigned IP addresses and the fast-shutdown feature of Windows). The second was random crashes between 30mins and 1hour after boot up. Of course, the occasional issue on linux occurs (though not really at this scale) - but what is worse is that you aren't given the tools or the means to troubleshoot them. There were at least 3 or 4 published articles about the second problem (which was due to a failing anniversary update - also difficult to troubleshoot as it doesn't show up as a process)- but none of them were actually useful for troubleshooting - they just gave '7 things you can do...', one of which was rebooting... (here's an example of one https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-anniversary-update-keeps-freezing-heres-how-fix-problem https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-anniversary-update... - they are useless!) I think we need to define a new disease because we are both clearly suffering from it: Post-Windows Traumatic Stress Disorder Symptoms: unexpected and disproportionate rage at slightest OS attempt to override what they are doing or present them with adverts. occasional bouts of unexplained anger Signs: weary-looking. withdraws when presented with Windows laptop. Investigations: while undergoing windows update process, patient demonstrates strong negative emotional signs, i.e. sobbing, aggression Treatment: if caught early, complete abstinence from windows. After several years they may start to consider trying out the latest version because it apparently forgoes the need for Windows. this is the point of relapse for most people. if caught late (i.e. >10 years exposure), the prognosis is poor. you can try flooding therapy with Windows, complete abstinence from linux/MacOSX. eventually they may accept the subordinate position to their operating system and be able to share their happy experience of windows with their peers.
  - staofbur 9y ago
    25 years windows here. I suspect it is some variety of Stockholm syndrome or the fact that several years of "problem attrition" as I call it numbs you to the fact that it isn't a routine thing facing weird issues every day. These are accepted as the norm in windows development teams. The hilarious thing is the occasional thing I get which is "what do you mean it only too ten minutes?" because people are trained to think that certain things take at least a day and then subconsciously avoid doing them because they don't want to have to explain where that time is going. I'm going to write a book on this one day. As for Linux issues, the ONLY issue I've had this year so far is duplicity consuming too much RAM and crashing on a filesystem with tens of thousands of inodes used. This was a relatively easy fix as well. A two line python change. I haven't submitted it yet as a patch because they patched it upstream already when someone else fixed it. Just waiting for it to trickle down to the vendor's repos.

jmkni 9y ago

Maybe you're just not very good at using Windows? I don't have these issues.

staofbur 9y ago
I've been building windows applications, right down from Win32/ATL/MFC/C++/DCOM and up to C#/WPF/ASP.Net for 25 years and managed teams of 80+ developers. I can drive windows in my sleep. It's not that. It's a fundamental quality issue caused by a combination of tangled complexity and framework schizophrenia.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]