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I'm not overly clear on what the post is proposing Author here. It is part of a series of posts and earlier ones got some pushback in terms of "Well, if you do

by Mz 9y ago

I'm not overly clear on what the post is proposing Author here. It is part of a series of posts and earlier ones got some pushback in terms of "Well, if you don't drink alcohol, you just can't attend these things at all!" The main point I would like to make with this piece is that it is possible to avoid drinking alcohol without making a big deal of it. Secondarily, we could change cultural expectations so that it isn't necessary to actively hide it. I am not talking about forbidding alcohol. But an expectation that people must drink combined with certain other social expectations tends to go bad places, especially in mixed company. There is no reason we must blindly accept whatever expectations are the perceived current norm. If people feel these norms are contributing to sexual harassment and sexual assault, we can modify our social norms to give people the option to do things that work better. If women genuinely like alcohol and know how to handle themselves and their circumstances such that it doesn't contribute to incidents of sexual assault, cool. But if a woman doesn't want to drink, she shouldn't have to and we can give push back against the idea that she has to either do so or at least do so in stealth mode. We can say "Well, if alcohol is part of the problem, we can insist that it is optional and a personal choice, not a requirement to bond with other business people." However, that is just one detail. The overarching theme is that I would like to see more focus on preventing sexual harassment et al to begin with. The recent stuff in the news has prompted a lot of "Let's hang them high!" type sentiments and I don't think that is the best solution. Spending all our time trying to figure out how to be ever more fervent in hunting down the guilty parties and making sure they pay will not open doors for women. In fact, it is likely to close doors for women. Men and women both need to feel safe when they interact in a business setting. A draconian atmosphere where men live in terror of being misunderstood or a possible false allegation would not be a good thing.

52-6F-62 9y ago
The clarification helped a lot. I confess, I don't have a lot of experience in any legitimate professional setting where anybody would be pressured to or shamed for not drinking. I spent a few years in the music scene and it was nearly expected there, but you get used to most types of people and all kinds of crazy mud slinging there. I have a sister who is finishing up her masters in Psych, though. She never really drank and claimed that she always had a hard time socially because of it, to the point where she would be confronted about it. Is that something you experience regularly? Personally, I'd never dream of trying to assert that with somebody. Of course I'd expect the same decency, and lack of judgement for my sincere love of whisky. I just never considered it so central to social/professional engagement. Is that part of your experience?
- Mz 9y ago
  Drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol has not been particularly relevant to my work experience, if that is what you are asking. I do eat and drink "weird" things because I have special dietary needs. I have a long history of downplaying that. People eventually quit caring when I make it clear it is not some kind of left-handed criticism of them, this is just what works for me. I don't much drink alcohol and never have. I have no reason to believe this has hurt my social life. I have had geeky hobbies, like being a girl gamer, where drinking was not a big part of the scene. My mother does not tolerate alcohol well and does not drink at all because she literally throws up afterwards. My dad drank very heavily when he was still career army and quit when I was about seven years old. So I come from a family where one parent was a tea-totaller and one was a heavy drinker and this was a non-issue within the family. I guess this is part of why I cannot fathom why people seem to think that a group has to either pressure everyone to drink or pressure everyone to not drink. My mother's position was "He made enough money to pay the bills and he was never a mean drunk." So she basically didn't care because it didn't cause problems and that's basically my metric. If drinking is creating problems, well the problems need to go somehow and not drinking can be one method to achieve that. If your drinking is not creating problems, then no one should care if you enjoy your whiskey.
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    I see. I didn't mean to make too much of a point of my experience -- more to use it as an anecdote to frame my point of reference. Still you answered my question to an extent -- your experience has included situations where it seemed everyone must either drink or not drink? Does that include the desire to hold a social event in a bar/pub/restaurant vs. another locale, or is the pressure more directly focused on having everybody actually imbibe? I'm sorry if it's starting to seem like the 3rd degree, but I'm sincerely curious. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding why any adult really cares too much about anybody's consumption habits in any reasonable world... yet here we are. Thanks for your responses

by Mz 9y ago

52-6F-62 9y ago

The clarification helped a lot. I confess, I don't have a lot of experience in any legitimate professional setting where anybody would be pressured to or shamed for not drinking. I spent a few years in the music scene and it was nearly expected there, but you get used to most types of people and all kinds of crazy mud slinging there. I have a sister who is finishing up her masters in Psych, though. She never really drank and claimed that she always had a hard time socially because of it, to the point where she would be confronted about it. Is that something you experience regularly? Personally, I'd never dream of trying to assert that with somebody. Of course I'd expect the same decency, and lack of judgement for my sincere love of whisky. I just never considered it so central to social/professional engagement. Is that part of your experience?

Mz 9y ago
Drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol has not been particularly relevant to my work experience, if that is what you are asking. I do eat and drink "weird" things because I have special dietary needs. I have a long history of downplaying that. People eventually quit caring when I make it clear it is not some kind of left-handed criticism of them, this is just what works for me. I don't much drink alcohol and never have. I have no reason to believe this has hurt my social life. I have had geeky hobbies, like being a girl gamer, where drinking was not a big part of the scene. My mother does not tolerate alcohol well and does not drink at all because she literally throws up afterwards. My dad drank very heavily when he was still career army and quit when I was about seven years old. So I come from a family where one parent was a tea-totaller and one was a heavy drinker and this was a non-issue within the family. I guess this is part of why I cannot fathom why people seem to think that a group has to either pressure everyone to drink or pressure everyone to not drink. My mother's position was "He made enough money to pay the bills and he was never a mean drunk." So she basically didn't care because it didn't cause problems and that's basically my metric. If drinking is creating problems, well the problems need to go somehow and not drinking can be one method to achieve that. If your drinking is not creating problems, then no one should care if you enjoy your whiskey.
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  I see. I didn't mean to make too much of a point of my experience -- more to use it as an anecdote to frame my point of reference. Still you answered my question to an extent -- your experience has included situations where it seemed everyone must either drink or not drink? Does that include the desire to hold a social event in a bar/pub/restaurant vs. another locale, or is the pressure more directly focused on having everybody actually imbibe? I'm sorry if it's starting to seem like the 3rd degree, but I'm sincerely curious. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding why any adult really cares too much about anybody's consumption habits in any reasonable world... yet here we are. Thanks for your responses