3 ms·

Not Drinking Alcohol in Stealth Mode

26 points by Mz 9y ago

52-6F-62 9y ago
My grandmother (RIP) held various roles at Gulf and Shell throughout the 60's through the early 90's. She used to tell me about how she had tried to retire, but due to the lack of experienced, skilled Fortran programmers at the time she was called back to work. In her time working she used to tell me stories about "3 martini" lunches and regular cocktail events where she would use the same tactic -- usually some club soda with a lemon or a ginger-ale to make as if she were drinking with "the boys". Of course, the oil industry in those days was party-heavy because they were really rolling in it and their PR owned public opinion. Though, I don't think she was in IT or working with other tech-minded types. She was usually in systems/analysis and spent a lot of time with sales, I think. Not sure if this contributes much, but it's not a new trick. I can see why it was necessary in those days. I find it a little funny because I work with a number of very talented, educated women who are professionally respected and well-liked and they love their drink (maybe more than I profess I do!) and don't hide it. Maybe it's only in certain circumstances, or with certain groups that kind of measured restraint is necessary. --- That said, I'm not overly clear on what the post is proposing. Is it leaning toward temperance as a preventative measure? That's kind of what I'm gleaning at surface-level. I do agree that it would be an improvement to adjust our collective behaviour to avoid or mitigate social and psychological damage -- however, I don't think temperance is the way. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding here. So that I hope my perspective is understood, I've worked in environments that were (blue collar and) rampant with racism and sexism, and now work in a far more enlightened company that still has some way to go, but generally gets it. I'd like to give an example and be as brief as possible: in generally recent history there was a large, public scandal where I work where members of senior staff gained some notoriety for some less-than-well-thought-out tweets. It ran all through the media, social media, and nearly prompted public resignations. Immediately there were forums held with each department and then the entire business unit as a whole where any employee who wanted to speak their mind or ask questions was given the stage -- and speak their mind they did! The senior staff has been undergoing adjustments to the company and their behaviour since then. Many people are not completely satisfied with the result, but I think the understanding is there was no satisfying result to come out of it. At least they had used it to prompt for change in a positive direction as it aired some dirty laundry. I don't want to mention further details for concern of making it explicit where this happened. (I'm trying to keep my account relatively vague) I guess I'm trying to illustrate a middle road possibility. One where we don't hang the fools for the benefit of the other potential fools. Also one where we don't restrict ourselves so far as to remove things we enjoy for the risk they might or might not introduce. Rather one that makes it a default behaviour to seek to adjust wrong behaviour (barring no hard lines have been crossed), and gather more perspective into what's considered right. I do feel the need to add that I still see many holes in what I'm saying, and there's not likely a way this could be applied universally.
- Mz 9y ago
  I'm not overly clear on what the post is proposing Author here. It is part of a series of posts and earlier ones got some pushback in terms of "Well, if you don't drink alcohol, you just can't attend these things at all!" The main point I would like to make with this piece is that it is possible to avoid drinking alcohol without making a big deal of it. Secondarily, we could change cultural expectations so that it isn't necessary to actively hide it. I am not talking about forbidding alcohol. But an expectation that people must drink combined with certain other social expectations tends to go bad places, especially in mixed company. There is no reason we must blindly accept whatever expectations are the perceived current norm. If people feel these norms are contributing to sexual harassment and sexual assault, we can modify our social norms to give people the option to do things that work better. If women genuinely like alcohol and know how to handle themselves and their circumstances such that it doesn't contribute to incidents of sexual assault, cool. But if a woman doesn't want to drink, she shouldn't have to and we can give push back against the idea that she has to either do so or at least do so in stealth mode. We can say "Well, if alcohol is part of the problem, we can insist that it is optional and a personal choice, not a requirement to bond with other business people." However, that is just one detail. The overarching theme is that I would like to see more focus on preventing sexual harassment et al to begin with. The recent stuff in the news has prompted a lot of "Let's hang them high!" type sentiments and I don't think that is the best solution. Spending all our time trying to figure out how to be ever more fervent in hunting down the guilty parties and making sure they pay will not open doors for women. In fact, it is likely to close doors for women. Men and women both need to feel safe when they interact in a business setting. A draconian atmosphere where men live in terror of being misunderstood or a possible false allegation would not be a good thing.
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    The clarification helped a lot. I confess, I don't have a lot of experience in any legitimate professional setting where anybody would be pressured to or shamed for not drinking. I spent a few years in the music scene and it was nearly expected there, but you get used to most types of people and all kinds of crazy mud slinging there. I have a sister who is finishing up her masters in Psych, though. She never really drank and claimed that she always had a hard time socially because of it, to the point where she would be confronted about it. Is that something you experience regularly? Personally, I'd never dream of trying to assert that with somebody. Of course I'd expect the same decency, and lack of judgement for my sincere love of whisky. I just never considered it so central to social/professional engagement. Is that part of your experience?
valuearb 9y ago
I'm a man and I don't drink. Whether purely social or work-social event, it's always awkward, but I just don't care.
burntrelish1273 9y ago
There are many different work cultures, which vary from company-to-company and region-to-region. Valley / Austin / MBB / B4 enterprise sales/consulting... it's a limited greek-type college culture but employees are expected to entertain clients (ie golf, booze, dinner, whatever) and function at 100% the next day. In the US, having sex or off-color comments with clients, coworkers, customers, vendors or anyone are universally frowned upon as it could risk unpleasant HR politics, bad media exposure and losing million$ in contracts. In the UK, internally, locker-room school humor, sarcastic inflammatory statements are expected, as is handling one's alcohol... externally, stoicism and little personal matters are expected as business is expected to be punctual, efficient and to-the-point. California startup culture on the other hand varies greatly: from college students whose brogrammer culture risks lawsuits at every turn to the better enterprise-inculcated startups that have a number of married people and more inherent stability/respect/diversity... less drama.
- nailer 9y ago
  Agreed re the UK. Generally British people aren't direct in the workplace to the same level Americans or Australians are. If you want to know what people actually think, you need to be at the pub. As someone who likes to control my alcohol intake I therefore have similar issues - I normally have a soda and lime every second drink. But yes this takes a strong ability to withstand social pressure.
qubex 9y ago
I am an extraordinarily moderate drinker (the last alcoholic beverage I imbibed was a single beer in March), and I have a policy of never drinking in professional environments. I have hardly ever been pressured into it, and the few times somebody has become slightly pushy, I just mutter something about "being on medication" and they knock it off.
- Mz 9y ago
  That's really good. I like the "good excuse" if someone is being pushy over stealth mode approach.
kneel 9y ago
I'm doing a dry July. I've been saying 'I'm not drinking this month.' It's a great lead in to a conversation about the pros and cons of alcohol. What's the big deal?

26 points by Mz 9y ago

My grandmother (RIP) held various roles at Gulf and Shell throughout the 60's through the early 90's. She used to tell me about how she had tried to retire, but due to the lack of experienced, skilled Fortran programmers at the time she was called back to work. In her time working she used to tell me stories about "3 martini" lunches and regular cocktail events where she would use the same tactic -- usually some club soda with a lemon or a ginger-ale to make as if she were drinking with "the boys". Of course, the oil industry in those days was party-heavy because they were really rolling in it and their PR owned public opinion. Though, I don't think she was in IT or working with other tech-minded types. She was usually in systems/analysis and spent a lot of time with sales, I think. Not sure if this contributes much, but it's not a new trick. I can see why it was necessary in those days. I find it a little funny because I work with a number of very talented, educated women who are professionally respected and well-liked and they love their drink (maybe more than I profess I do!) and don't hide it. Maybe it's only in certain circumstances, or with certain groups that kind of measured restraint is necessary. --- That said, I'm not overly clear on what the post is proposing. Is it leaning toward temperance as a preventative measure? That's kind of what I'm gleaning at surface-level. I do agree that it would be an improvement to adjust our collective behaviour to avoid or mitigate social and psychological damage -- however, I don't think temperance is the way. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding here. So that I hope my perspective is understood, I've worked in environments that were (blue collar and) rampant with racism and sexism, and now work in a far more enlightened company that still has some way to go, but generally gets it. I'd like to give an example and be as brief as possible: in generally recent history there was a large, public scandal where I work where members of senior staff gained some notoriety for some less-than-well-thought-out tweets. It ran all through the media, social media, and nearly prompted public resignations. Immediately there were forums held with each department and then the entire business unit as a whole where any employee who wanted to speak their mind or ask questions was given the stage -- and speak their mind they did! The senior staff has been undergoing adjustments to the company and their behaviour since then. Many people are not completely satisfied with the result, but I think the understanding is there was no satisfying result to come out of it. At least they had used it to prompt for change in a positive direction as it aired some dirty laundry. I don't want to mention further details for concern of making it explicit where this happened. (I'm trying to keep my account relatively vague) I guess I'm trying to illustrate a middle road possibility. One where we don't hang the fools for the benefit of the other potential fools. Also one where we don't restrict ourselves so far as to remove things we enjoy for the risk they might or might not introduce. Rather one that makes it a default behaviour to seek to adjust wrong behaviour (barring no hard lines have been crossed), and gather more perspective into what's considered right. I do feel the need to add that I still see many holes in what I'm saying, and there's not likely a way this could be applied universally.

Mz 9y ago
I'm not overly clear on what the post is proposing Author here. It is part of a series of posts and earlier ones got some pushback in terms of "Well, if you don't drink alcohol, you just can't attend these things at all!" The main point I would like to make with this piece is that it is possible to avoid drinking alcohol without making a big deal of it. Secondarily, we could change cultural expectations so that it isn't necessary to actively hide it. I am not talking about forbidding alcohol. But an expectation that people must drink combined with certain other social expectations tends to go bad places, especially in mixed company. There is no reason we must blindly accept whatever expectations are the perceived current norm. If people feel these norms are contributing to sexual harassment and sexual assault, we can modify our social norms to give people the option to do things that work better. If women genuinely like alcohol and know how to handle themselves and their circumstances such that it doesn't contribute to incidents of sexual assault, cool. But if a woman doesn't want to drink, she shouldn't have to and we can give push back against the idea that she has to either do so or at least do so in stealth mode. We can say "Well, if alcohol is part of the problem, we can insist that it is optional and a personal choice, not a requirement to bond with other business people." However, that is just one detail. The overarching theme is that I would like to see more focus on preventing sexual harassment et al to begin with. The recent stuff in the news has prompted a lot of "Let's hang them high!" type sentiments and I don't think that is the best solution. Spending all our time trying to figure out how to be ever more fervent in hunting down the guilty parties and making sure they pay will not open doors for women. In fact, it is likely to close doors for women. Men and women both need to feel safe when they interact in a business setting. A draconian atmosphere where men live in terror of being misunderstood or a possible false allegation would not be a good thing.
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  The clarification helped a lot. I confess, I don't have a lot of experience in any legitimate professional setting where anybody would be pressured to or shamed for not drinking. I spent a few years in the music scene and it was nearly expected there, but you get used to most types of people and all kinds of crazy mud slinging there. I have a sister who is finishing up her masters in Psych, though. She never really drank and claimed that she always had a hard time socially because of it, to the point where she would be confronted about it. Is that something you experience regularly? Personally, I'd never dream of trying to assert that with somebody. Of course I'd expect the same decency, and lack of judgement for my sincere love of whisky. I just never considered it so central to social/professional engagement. Is that part of your experience?

valuearb 9y ago

I'm a man and I don't drink. Whether purely social or work-social event, it's always awkward, but I just don't care.

burntrelish1273 9y ago

There are many different work cultures, which vary from company-to-company and region-to-region. Valley / Austin / MBB / B4 enterprise sales/consulting... it's a limited greek-type college culture but employees are expected to entertain clients (ie golf, booze, dinner, whatever) and function at 100% the next day. In the US, having sex or off-color comments with clients, coworkers, customers, vendors or anyone are universally frowned upon as it could risk unpleasant HR politics, bad media exposure and losing million$ in contracts. In the UK, internally, locker-room school humor, sarcastic inflammatory statements are expected, as is handling one's alcohol... externally, stoicism and little personal matters are expected as business is expected to be punctual, efficient and to-the-point. California startup culture on the other hand varies greatly: from college students whose brogrammer culture risks lawsuits at every turn to the better enterprise-inculcated startups that have a number of married people and more inherent stability/respect/diversity... less drama.

nailer 9y ago
Agreed re the UK. Generally British people aren't direct in the workplace to the same level Americans or Australians are. If you want to know what people actually think, you need to be at the pub. As someone who likes to control my alcohol intake I therefore have similar issues - I normally have a soda and lime every second drink. But yes this takes a strong ability to withstand social pressure.

qubex 9y ago

I am an extraordinarily moderate drinker (the last alcoholic beverage I imbibed was a single beer in March), and I have a policy of never drinking in professional environments. I have hardly ever been pressured into it, and the few times somebody has become slightly pushy, I just mutter something about "being on medication" and they knock it off.

Mz 9y ago
That's really good. I like the "good excuse" if someone is being pushy over stealth mode approach.

kneel 9y ago

I'm doing a dry July. I've been saying 'I'm not drinking this month.' It's a great lead in to a conversation about the pros and cons of alcohol. What's the big deal?