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I'm a bit evangelical about low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) diets nowadays, especially keto. Personally, I'm not at the fitness level where I could conceivably run a

I'm a bit evangelical about low-carb, high-fat (LCHF) diets nowadays, especially keto. Personally, I'm not at the fitness level where I could conceivably run a marathon. Maybe a 5K or a half. But the article mentions him hitting walls as he hit certain mile markers, and having his wife help him reach the finish. This guy: https://youtu.be/96VZFklUM_Q https://youtu.be/96VZFklUM_Q runs ultra marathons, using fat for fuel. He leaves his fellow competitors in his dust because he doesn't have to carry glucose packets to keep his body fed. Instead, he finishes his race with an avocado and bison jerky.

jackmott 9y ago
>He leaves his fellow competitors in his dust because he doesn't have to carry glucose packets to keep his body fed. How do you know that is why he leaves others in the dust, vs him just being more talented, or training more, or training smarter, or just setting higher goals than the last generation of endurance runners? Also you should keep in mind that while there is at least a plausible story you can tell about > 5 hour endurance efforts benefiting from some kind of fat burning approach, from 5k to marathon, you absolutely want to be burning glucose if you want to go as fast as you can go. This is unambiguous.
- HorizonXP 9y ago
  I agree with the speed aspect, but I wish there were better studies that actually tested this. I realize that "explosive" power is diminished when you're burning fat vs. glucose, it would be interesting to know by what amount. Moreover, is it something that normal people need to know about or is it something that occurs at the extremes of performance? In regards to your first point, I mean, in the video, he stated that he used to try running with the glucose packets and he stated that he got sick trying to keep it all down, and it really slowed him down. It's anecdotal evidence of course, but I wasn't trying to present as anything other than that. :-) Edit: Holy run-on sentence. I'm going to leave it for posterity.
  - jackmott 9y ago
    The range of aerobic power that people put out is pretty huge, its possible that at the extreme low end, having no glycogen to burn wouldn't be a limiter, but certainly at the moderately trained average joe level, it is still a limiter. But early on, you don't need to worry much about it, just get out and move every day. If you keep it up for a year or two, and want to get faster, you can start adding things to be neurotic about =)
ultra-jeremyx 9y ago
Timmy Olsen has been hit or miss as far as leaving his competitors in the dust. There are a LOT of other factors. Who's on top in the ultrarunning world is constantly changing, and, the ultra races are extremely vaired: 100 mile road races to the Barkley Marathons. Just last year, Karl Meltzer broke vegan runner Scott Jurick's Appalachian Trail speed record. Obviously, they had very different diets. I think the real requirement for ultrarunning (and other long-term thinking activities) is grit. Grit includes will power but also the ability to endure.
Swizec 9y ago
As someone currently training for the SF Marathon, here's my perspective on low carb and glucose packets. Low-ish carb is great. It helps you endure long runs overall and it's a good habit in general. Especially for recovering after the race and getting all those calories back. During the long run itself however, glucose packets are absolutely necessary. You run out of glycogen stores every 45 minutes or so. That's when you start cramping up and having trouble. A glucose packet gives you some caffeine (helps with stamina and pain tolerance), and some electrolytes (helps with cramping and hydration), and some 100 calories of sugar (helps with glycogen levels and mental fortitude). Crucially, you aren't replacing all the calories you burn. That's impossible. In a 4 hour marathon I burn between 2500 and 3000 calories. The packets replace only 500 calories. The difference between packets and no packets is that with packets, I am able to be a human person after a marathon. Far less cranky, far less tired, generally feeling okay. Without the packets, I'm basically a walking zombie. That said, it took a lot of practice to figure out the right timing for those packets, to train my body to absorb them and so on. It's definitely not something you want to start experimenting with on race day. That's a recipe for puking.
- mirkules 9y ago
  The first time I tried a packet (GU gel) in a practice run, I nearly puked. It tastes like liquefied bubble gum and the taste stuck with me for the next 30 minutes. Which ones work well for you?
  - gopalv 9y ago
    > The first time I tried a packet (GU gel) in a practice run, I nearly puked I used to puke anything I had when I ran. My digestion couldn't handle food when I was running. It was a mix of slight heartburns (& coffee) causing a sensitive stomach which didn't like food moving around when I ran and partly because I was running so hard my stomach didn't have enough blood to process the food. Several weeks of eating peanut butter mini sandwiches with their crusts cut off, banana slices and oranges dipped in salt, while running at a moderate pace, I managed to tame the tummy. That said - I don't think I like the taste of GU gels, but like coffee or beer, you get used to it (& the extra 100Kcal feels like it goes directly to your legs).
revelation 9y ago
This is dangerous nonsense. Is it possible to run ultra marathons on fat? Of course, you have enough fat stored for many many of those. Is it in any way amenable to a good performance? Not at all, and you don't need a biology PhD to realize that. The limiting factor in endurance sports is rate of oxygen uptake, fat metabolism takes more oxygen per energy yielded and is therefore strictly less efficient than deriving energy from glycogen. Not to mention the majority of people will feel absolutely terrible trying to run in a depleted state. And there is no good reason to inflict that extra hardship on yourself when you can eat a large carb dinner and have enough glycogen to carry yourself through a half marathon (Why can this guy still get good results? Ultra marathon is not at all a highly competitive sport. Someone to the far right of the genetic bell curve can handicap themselves with pure fat metabolism and still perform good. They would be absolutely killed in say the marathon distance where there is much higher selection pressure, if you want to call it that. Also, you don't run ultra distance at a high effort level, say 50-60% of VO2max - so here fat metabolism is naturally more pronounced anyway)
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  Half marathons are right at the very limit of depleting your liver glycogen stores(100-200g). Anything beyond that, you better be eating quick carbs during your exercise, or you will start burning fat.
  - revelation 9y ago
    Well yes, that's why I picked that distance :) For a good performance, you want to be replenishing continuously anyway. And you are always burning fat. Human minds like to break it up into nice progressive steps or state machines but the actual body is just a highly parallel beast. Just that as you get closer to VO2max, the proportion shifts dramatically in favor to glycogen over fat.
  - gaius 9y ago
    I am not sure that's true, most marathoners (incl. myself) would report "hitting the wall" at around 20 miles.
gopalv 9y ago
> Maybe a 5K or a half ... the article mentions him hitting walls as he hit certain mile markers, Knowing where your walls are ... that's been one of the self-reflection exercises for me. Because it is an extremely personal limit & moves about with weight, food intake, sleep debt, hydration and local weather. The physical sensation of hitting the wall is somewhat orthogonal to all the other health benefits - it is an extremely accurate read of your physical condition on that day & tells you how you're doing.
gmuller 9y ago
Pretty sure Olson throws some carbs in during races (gels): http://www.timothyallenolson.com/2013/04/10/nutrition/ http://www.timothyallenolson.com/2013/04/10/nutrition/
xiaoma 9y ago
And yet Rob Krar isn't into low-carb, is pushing 40 and runs the same distances faster... For that matter, the Bison Bar mentioned in the video you linked to contains roughly equal amounts of protein and sugar! Not that it matters much. Frankly, ultra runners can get away with more mistakes since there's so much less competition at their distances. The top competitive distance runners (a group dominated by Kenyans and Ethiopians) generally eat over 70% of their calories from carbohydrates. Naoko Takahashi said she loved Korean barbecue. Bill Rodgers, the dominant marathoner of the previous genration, seemed to live off of pizza slathered in mayonnaise. Paula Radcliffe talked about eating a lot of fruits, yogurt and granola. While many, many runners have sworn by various odd diets, it doesn't look like anyone has been able to get a sizable edge from theirs. I only raced 5-10k ranges, but I used to run greater than marathon distances once or twice per month in the mountains for fun so I can have some personal experience with "walls". Even a skinny person has enough fat on them to run for far longer distances than any race I've heard of. The "walls" are more about glycogen limits in your muscles. Extending the wall is mostly an issue of how high your aerobic threshold is, how well you can spare glycogen at the beginning (though this probably matters less for ultras) and your running efficiency. All three of these factors are influenced by diet to some degree but training is by far the more important factor. Strangely, caffeine has a bigger effect than macro-nutrient composition.
ramblerman 9y ago
This guy is definitely not keto though. He just has an aversion to high glucose gel packs which I agree with. Here he is making a banana smoothie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96VZFklUM_Q&feature=youtu.be&t=717 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96VZFklUM_Q&feature=youtu.be...

jackmott 9y ago

>He leaves his fellow competitors in his dust because he doesn't have to carry glucose packets to keep his body fed. How do you know that is why he leaves others in the dust, vs him just being more talented, or training more, or training smarter, or just setting higher goals than the last generation of endurance runners? Also you should keep in mind that while there is at least a plausible story you can tell about > 5 hour endurance efforts benefiting from some kind of fat burning approach, from 5k to marathon, you absolutely want to be burning glucose if you want to go as fast as you can go. This is unambiguous.

HorizonXP 9y ago
I agree with the speed aspect, but I wish there were better studies that actually tested this. I realize that "explosive" power is diminished when you're burning fat vs. glucose, it would be interesting to know by what amount. Moreover, is it something that normal people need to know about or is it something that occurs at the extremes of performance? In regards to your first point, I mean, in the video, he stated that he used to try running with the glucose packets and he stated that he got sick trying to keep it all down, and it really slowed him down. It's anecdotal evidence of course, but I wasn't trying to present as anything other than that. :-) Edit: Holy run-on sentence. I'm going to leave it for posterity.
- jackmott 9y ago
  The range of aerobic power that people put out is pretty huge, its possible that at the extreme low end, having no glycogen to burn wouldn't be a limiter, but certainly at the moderately trained average joe level, it is still a limiter. But early on, you don't need to worry much about it, just get out and move every day. If you keep it up for a year or two, and want to get faster, you can start adding things to be neurotic about =)

ultra-jeremyx 9y ago

Timmy Olsen has been hit or miss as far as leaving his competitors in the dust. There are a LOT of other factors. Who's on top in the ultrarunning world is constantly changing, and, the ultra races are extremely vaired: 100 mile road races to the Barkley Marathons. Just last year, Karl Meltzer broke vegan runner Scott Jurick's Appalachian Trail speed record. Obviously, they had very different diets. I think the real requirement for ultrarunning (and other long-term thinking activities) is grit. Grit includes will power but also the ability to endure.

Swizec 9y ago

As someone currently training for the SF Marathon, here's my perspective on low carb and glucose packets. Low-ish carb is great. It helps you endure long runs overall and it's a good habit in general. Especially for recovering after the race and getting all those calories back. During the long run itself however, glucose packets are absolutely necessary. You run out of glycogen stores every 45 minutes or so. That's when you start cramping up and having trouble. A glucose packet gives you some caffeine (helps with stamina and pain tolerance), and some electrolytes (helps with cramping and hydration), and some 100 calories of sugar (helps with glycogen levels and mental fortitude). Crucially, you aren't replacing all the calories you burn. That's impossible. In a 4 hour marathon I burn between 2500 and 3000 calories. The packets replace only 500 calories. The difference between packets and no packets is that with packets, I am able to be a human person after a marathon. Far less cranky, far less tired, generally feeling okay. Without the packets, I'm basically a walking zombie. That said, it took a lot of practice to figure out the right timing for those packets, to train my body to absorb them and so on. It's definitely not something you want to start experimenting with on race day. That's a recipe for puking.

mirkules 9y ago
The first time I tried a packet (GU gel) in a practice run, I nearly puked. It tastes like liquefied bubble gum and the taste stuck with me for the next 30 minutes. Which ones work well for you?
- gopalv 9y ago
  > The first time I tried a packet (GU gel) in a practice run, I nearly puked I used to puke anything I had when I ran. My digestion couldn't handle food when I was running. It was a mix of slight heartburns (& coffee) causing a sensitive stomach which didn't like food moving around when I ran and partly because I was running so hard my stomach didn't have enough blood to process the food. Several weeks of eating peanut butter mini sandwiches with their crusts cut off, banana slices and oranges dipped in salt, while running at a moderate pace, I managed to tame the tummy. That said - I don't think I like the taste of GU gels, but like coffee or beer, you get used to it (& the extra 100Kcal feels like it goes directly to your legs).

revelation 9y ago

This is dangerous nonsense. Is it possible to run ultra marathons on fat? Of course, you have enough fat stored for many many of those. Is it in any way amenable to a good performance? Not at all, and you don't need a biology PhD to realize that. The limiting factor in endurance sports is rate of oxygen uptake, fat metabolism takes more oxygen per energy yielded and is therefore strictly less efficient than deriving energy from glycogen. Not to mention the majority of people will feel absolutely terrible trying to run in a depleted state. And there is no good reason to inflict that extra hardship on yourself when you can eat a large carb dinner and have enough glycogen to carry yourself through a half marathon (Why can this guy still get good results? Ultra marathon is not at all a highly competitive sport. Someone to the far right of the genetic bell curve can handicap themselves with pure fat metabolism and still perform good. They would be absolutely killed in say the marathon distance where there is much higher selection pressure, if you want to call it that. Also, you don't run ultra distance at a high effort level, say 50-60% of VO2max - so here fat metabolism is naturally more pronounced anyway)

oh_sigh 9y ago
Half marathons are right at the very limit of depleting your liver glycogen stores(100-200g). Anything beyond that, you better be eating quick carbs during your exercise, or you will start burning fat.
- revelation 9y ago
  Well yes, that's why I picked that distance :) For a good performance, you want to be replenishing continuously anyway. And you are always burning fat. Human minds like to break it up into nice progressive steps or state machines but the actual body is just a highly parallel beast. Just that as you get closer to VO2max, the proportion shifts dramatically in favor to glycogen over fat.
- gaius 9y ago
  I am not sure that's true, most marathoners (incl. myself) would report "hitting the wall" at around 20 miles.

gopalv 9y ago

> Maybe a 5K or a half ... the article mentions him hitting walls as he hit certain mile markers, Knowing where your walls are ... that's been one of the self-reflection exercises for me. Because it is an extremely personal limit & moves about with weight, food intake, sleep debt, hydration and local weather. The physical sensation of hitting the wall is somewhat orthogonal to all the other health benefits - it is an extremely accurate read of your physical condition on that day & tells you how you're doing.

gmuller 9y ago

Pretty sure Olson throws some carbs in during races (gels): http://www.timothyallenolson.com/2013/04/10/nutrition/ http://www.timothyallenolson.com/2013/04/10/nutrition/

xiaoma 9y ago

And yet Rob Krar isn't into low-carb, is pushing 40 and runs the same distances faster... For that matter, the Bison Bar mentioned in the video you linked to contains roughly equal amounts of protein and sugar! Not that it matters much. Frankly, ultra runners can get away with more mistakes since there's so much less competition at their distances. The top competitive distance runners (a group dominated by Kenyans and Ethiopians) generally eat over 70% of their calories from carbohydrates. Naoko Takahashi said she loved Korean barbecue. Bill Rodgers, the dominant marathoner of the previous genration, seemed to live off of pizza slathered in mayonnaise. Paula Radcliffe talked about eating a lot of fruits, yogurt and granola. While many, many runners have sworn by various odd diets, it doesn't look like anyone has been able to get a sizable edge from theirs. I only raced 5-10k ranges, but I used to run greater than marathon distances once or twice per month in the mountains for fun so I can have some personal experience with "walls". Even a skinny person has enough fat on them to run for far longer distances than any race I've heard of. The "walls" are more about glycogen limits in your muscles. Extending the wall is mostly an issue of how high your aerobic threshold is, how well you can spare glycogen at the beginning (though this probably matters less for ultras) and your running efficiency. All three of these factors are influenced by diet to some degree but training is by far the more important factor. Strangely, caffeine has a bigger effect than macro-nutrient composition.

ramblerman 9y ago

This guy is definitely not keto though. He just has an aversion to high glucose gel packs which I agree with. Here he is making a banana smoothie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96VZFklUM_Q&feature=youtu.be&t=717 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96VZFklUM_Q&feature=youtu.be...