4 ms·

I'd rather spend 20 hours in a weekend doing an homework like this than inverting a binary tree on a whiteboard. At least I can actually show that I know someth

I'd rather spend 20 hours in a weekend doing an homework like this than inverting a binary tree on a whiteboard. At least I can actually show that I know something other than just sweating and look really dumb.

pawelkomarnicki 9y ago
Last time I was hiring an iOS dev, we had a cool 2 hour pairing session (it was supposed to be 1 hour, but time flies when you're having fun), doing something really simple in the scope of the project. He shown how he works, and tackles problems, answered some questions, got hired. You really can hire in a humane way, you just need to want it.
- valuearb 9y ago
  Pair programming tests are fair because the company is investing the same time as candidate, just like any interview. Asking candidates to do tests on their own time is rude and dumb.
- protonfish 9y ago
  If it's worth your time, its worth my time. I am happy to do any interview testing and activities as long it is on location. Any "homework" longer than an hour or so is disproportionally a burden on the candidate. I feel it is unethical and a dealbreaker for me.
macca321 9y ago
Except when you deliver the homework, working, with tests, and then you receive a rejection with incorrect bikesheddy feedback , or even worse, no feedback at all.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kintalo 9y ago
  What's wrong with that? If they leave feedback people can argue and claim it's invalid. Interviewing at a company isn't a free mentoring resource.
  - cat199 9y ago
    Professional or even human decency? Candidate just devoted significant portion of an entire day with no compensation in hopes to work for you, you basically say 'no' and give nothing back.. its using peoples labor for free and trashing them. Interviewing candidates also isn't a free labor source (in event that 'homework' has some professional use, which it often could)
  - FireBeyond 9y ago
    Everything. Other than obviously or blatantly incompetent coding, I'd expect that as a minimum, a code review would be a part of the equation. This is similar to you working on a project, your boss looking over it, not saying a word, dragging it to the Recycle Bin, and walking off.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    Because it's classless. You inveigle a candidate to spend their time on a test you owe them the courtesy of feedback. I once spent two hours on a test for a contract development company. I'm an accomplished senior developer and normally i would have told them to F off, but I was curious so i did it. I did pretty well on it, but never got a response. Zip, nada, nothing. I emailed them multiple times and even called HR. Still no response. Anytime other devs ask me about that company, i say don't waste your time, they are super shitty.
  - detaro 9y ago
    See it as minimum payment for the time the applicant spent on it. (feel free to disregard if you pay them for the time they spend on the homework with actual money)
- duiker101 9y ago
  I get your point, but this still applies to the binary tree... That's the interview process. Yes, companies can make a better effort to give feedback, but I think that's secondary to give me the right opportunity to show what I can do.
Grue3 9y ago
Maybe you should learn how to invert a binary tree and save your time instead of doing unpaid work for others.
- sago 9y ago
  Even better: spend some time becoming comfortable with the most basic data structures, so you don't need to 'learn' anything. Because if someone struggles to combine swapping two values with basic tree recursion, they're probably much less skilled a programmer than they think. Even if they can google the shit out of a simple iOS app at home.
  - am8 9y ago
    Who cares, I'd rather not know this and look elsewhere than work with someone who had this sort of attitude
    - sago 9y ago
      The problem, from my perspective, is you think this is something that needs to be 'known', rather than a basic skill. I think it is basic. I don't want somebody who 'knows' how to invert a tree, any more than I want someone who's learned the answer to Fizzbuzz. The point is not that you know how to do it, but that you can naturally perform basic manipulation of very simple data structures. If you can't swap two values, or you can't write recursive code, you may think you're a competent programmer, but I don't agree. What is basic, if that kind of thing is advanced? If you think an employer expecting that level of competence has 'a sort of attitude', then I don't know what to say. How would you react to someone who felt that way when asked if they could code a loop over a pair of lists, or return a function from a function, or any thing else you consider routine (do you consider anything routine)? It worries me that programming has become 'copying and pasting from Google' and that people would find it offensive that anyone could possibly have a higher standard than that. If that's a horribly elitist, unacceptably arrogant attitude to you, then again, I don't know what to say.
      - 9y ago

pawelkomarnicki 9y ago

Last time I was hiring an iOS dev, we had a cool 2 hour pairing session (it was supposed to be 1 hour, but time flies when you're having fun), doing something really simple in the scope of the project. He shown how he works, and tackles problems, answered some questions, got hired. You really can hire in a humane way, you just need to want it.

valuearb 9y ago
Pair programming tests are fair because the company is investing the same time as candidate, just like any interview. Asking candidates to do tests on their own time is rude and dumb.
protonfish 9y ago
If it's worth your time, its worth my time. I am happy to do any interview testing and activities as long it is on location. Any "homework" longer than an hour or so is disproportionally a burden on the candidate. I feel it is unethical and a dealbreaker for me.

macca321 9y ago

Except when you deliver the homework, working, with tests, and then you receive a rejection with incorrect bikesheddy feedback , or even worse, no feedback at all.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
kintalo 9y ago
What's wrong with that? If they leave feedback people can argue and claim it's invalid. Interviewing at a company isn't a free mentoring resource.
- cat199 9y ago
  Professional or even human decency? Candidate just devoted significant portion of an entire day with no compensation in hopes to work for you, you basically say 'no' and give nothing back.. its using peoples labor for free and trashing them. Interviewing candidates also isn't a free labor source (in event that 'homework' has some professional use, which it often could)
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  Everything. Other than obviously or blatantly incompetent coding, I'd expect that as a minimum, a code review would be a part of the equation. This is similar to you working on a project, your boss looking over it, not saying a word, dragging it to the Recycle Bin, and walking off.
- valuearb 9y ago
  Because it's classless. You inveigle a candidate to spend their time on a test you owe them the courtesy of feedback. I once spent two hours on a test for a contract development company. I'm an accomplished senior developer and normally i would have told them to F off, but I was curious so i did it. I did pretty well on it, but never got a response. Zip, nada, nothing. I emailed them multiple times and even called HR. Still no response. Anytime other devs ask me about that company, i say don't waste your time, they are super shitty.
- detaro 9y ago
  See it as minimum payment for the time the applicant spent on it. (feel free to disregard if you pay them for the time they spend on the homework with actual money)
duiker101 9y ago
I get your point, but this still applies to the binary tree... That's the interview process. Yes, companies can make a better effort to give feedback, but I think that's secondary to give me the right opportunity to show what I can do.

Grue3 9y ago

Maybe you should learn how to invert a binary tree and save your time instead of doing unpaid work for others.

sago 9y ago
Even better: spend some time becoming comfortable with the most basic data structures, so you don't need to 'learn' anything. Because if someone struggles to combine swapping two values with basic tree recursion, they're probably much less skilled a programmer than they think. Even if they can google the shit out of a simple iOS app at home.
- am8 9y ago
  Who cares, I'd rather not know this and look elsewhere than work with someone who had this sort of attitude
  - sago 9y ago
    The problem, from my perspective, is you think this is something that needs to be 'known', rather than a basic skill. I think it is basic. I don't want somebody who 'knows' how to invert a tree, any more than I want someone who's learned the answer to Fizzbuzz. The point is not that you know how to do it, but that you can naturally perform basic manipulation of very simple data structures. If you can't swap two values, or you can't write recursive code, you may think you're a competent programmer, but I don't agree. What is basic, if that kind of thing is advanced? If you think an employer expecting that level of competence has 'a sort of attitude', then I don't know what to say. How would you react to someone who felt that way when asked if they could code a loop over a pair of lists, or return a function from a function, or any thing else you consider routine (do you consider anything routine)? It worries me that programming has become 'copying and pasting from Google' and that people would find it offensive that anyone could possibly have a higher standard than that. If that's a horribly elitist, unacceptably arrogant attitude to you, then again, I don't know what to say.
    - 9y ago