10 ms·

I could do your job. If I learned how to code. But as a product manager my duty is to act as a bridge betweeen you and my bosses and my customers and my custome

by techer 9y ago

I could do your job. If I learned how to code. But as a product manager my duty is to act as a bridge betweeen you and my bosses and my customers and my customer service etc. How skilled do you want me to be? It's very difficult dancing this dance. Fighting for resources. I think the difference is most managers can be ignorant uncaring assholes. Having a manager trust and listen to you and fight for you and defend you when necessary is far more important. I'm my opinion the only non technical part of me is that I haven't learned how to code. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I eat.

StavrosK 9y ago
> I could do your job. If I learned how to code. All that means is that you can't, though. In any case, I don't think the point is actually being able to code. To me, the point is knowing enough to not be a burden in the conversation. If you can follow the high level technical details of what people are saying, you're good. I have managers like that, and I love them. You sometimes need to explain some things but it doesn't take more than a sentence of "we can't do this because it would break the other thing".
- techer 9y ago
  You're totally correct. But I never wanted to. I do love technology and certainly try not to ignorant of current and future technologies. I respect the art of the programmer. But to be slightly rude just to make a point: an average or above average coder is a commodity. In theory many many people could do your job. But a great manager is not a commodity. They are highly prized and compensated. They can break down barriers and fight fight fight. You are right not to be a burden in the conversation. You need to kill your Ego - talking endless confusing bullshit to make yourself seem important is a nightmare. But my MD could be accused of the same the way he had to realign my priorities with that of the company. But when you understand that some of the people on the board of the company I worked for never even use a computer, a bridge is necessary.
  - greggman 9y ago
    You compared great managers to average coders. My experience with managers is like many people's. The "average" manager is pretty bad. The average coder is also pretty bad. Both the average manager and the average coder can be replaced pretty easily. The great manager and great coder can not. I can only speak for the programmer side of that though having been involved in interviewing and seeing how hard it is to find people to pass the simplest of questions. But, given my experience with managers I suspect it's just has hard to hire great managers.
    - techer 9y ago
      I think it's easier to find a great coder than a great manager. I could be wrong and totally appreciate your distinction. Edit- and I say that having worked with great coders but not many, if no great managers
      - kpil 9y ago
        Hm, being a bad manager is more visible, and even a good manager will attract more criticism. A mediocre developer can hide behind the team or other circumstances that can be more or less hard to evaluate.
        wil421 9y ago
        The same can be said of bad managers hiding behind a good team of direct reports. We've all had the bad manager who the owners or higher ups loved to death yet everyone on the team can tell they are incompetent. I'm not talking about the boss you hate but the truly incompentant ones. The place I work now doesn't really care about competence only a body filling a vacancy. Maybe it's time to find a new job...I digress.
      - dvirsky 9y ago
        I've worked with both, and let's agree that they are about equally hard to find, or more precisely hard to hire. To the untrained, though, above average coders and managers may appear great. But only once you've met an actual great one, you can really have perspective.
justboxing 9y ago
> my duty is to act as a bridge betweeen you and my bosses and my customers and my customer service etc. Obligatory 'Office Space' Movie Meme => http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1384740369505006881.jpg http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g13847403...
gamesbrainiac 9y ago
The only thing, is that you can't code? By that do you mean your ability to type stuff into a computer? Being able to engineer software is quite different from "coding". This is typical case of not knowing what you don't know. The manager is basically a group resource that _developers_ use. Instead of thinking of yourself as a boss of developers, think of yourself as a secretary that serves the developer team. For that you don't have to be very skilled, you just need to be able to communicate basic things, and know a little bit of lingo, which I'm sure you've been able to master.
usgroup 9y ago
If you were trolling I'd rank this as medium to high quality bait.
- techer 9y ago
  I've never intentionally trolled in 25 years on the internet so apologies again. I just know that I fight and deflect for the technical side, listen to their issues and do my best to let them do their jobs, while also have have to liaise with completely and utterly technically illiterate people, marketing especially. As a manager you are also managed. This is in the UK however, which is still relatively in its infancy in this regard.
mmjaa 9y ago
>I could do your job. If I learned how to code. You lost me here. If you can't do my job, you can't manage my job. Period. This lax attitude towards manager competence is little more than forced, groupthink subjugation to the Peters Principle [1] and has created a 'management class' that is little more than a means to undermine the 'technical class' with bullshit, and it is a cancer on our industry. [1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle ]
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > If you can't do my job, you can't manage my job. Nonsense. Managing people is a whole other bunch of skills distinct from the skills you need for coding. I won't disagree that a good manager who can code is a bonus though.
  - mmjaa 9y ago
    I didn't say they're not mutually incompatible, just that if all you've got is so-called "manager skills", and you still can't do the job of the people you're managing, then Peters Principle is well and truly in effect and the situation is dire - whether you like to think of yourself as a special human for having special management skills or not. Manage me, by all means, using the newest-fangled management psychology you think is necessary, but if you can't do even the most basic of my tasks, you're simply not qualified for the job and should quit. Seriously, this factor is cancerous on the industry and is, I believe, one of the most significant causes of the loss of productivity, revenue and ultimately success in our industry. Its time for this attitude to die.
    - mediocrejoker 9y ago
      The only problem I have with what you are saying is that there do exist good or great coders who go into management and become average or even poor managers. To me this phenomenon would imply the existence of some tangible management skills, separate from technical skills.
3pt14159 9y ago
I want you to be skilled. Very skilled. I've learned software development, software security, machine learning, data analysis, calculus, physical sciences and engineering, technical report writing, photography, the basics of design and colour theory, financial instruments, how to manage projects and people, and the basics of economics and law. It is not too much to expect that a technical manager learn at least one real programming language and use it to ship one real app before they start to try to understand and coordinate developers and designers. This is not too much to expect. I've been learning Russian for over a year and I expect it will be at least another year before I can comfortably have a conversation. You can at least do a Ruby or Objective C over a eight week bootcamp.
caseydurfee 9y ago
As a product manager, do you have developers formally reporting to you? That seems like a bad idea. If a PM doesn't have formal authority over developers but thinks of themselves that way, that's also bad.
- techer 9y ago
  No. They were not (although lines blur when an emergency happens!) But I was certainly managing them. It was my roadmap, so with nearly everything they worked on the buck stopped with me. I was the one who signed off on all their work, including testing. Including signing off on imperfect work in order to ship! I don't want authority over anyone, I want to work in a creative, sane and pleasant atmosphere. And I love to learn from people. Hopefully they can learn from me.

by techer 9y ago

StavrosK 9y ago

> I could do your job. If I learned how to code. All that means is that you can't, though. In any case, I don't think the point is actually being able to code. To me, the point is knowing enough to not be a burden in the conversation. If you can follow the high level technical details of what people are saying, you're good. I have managers like that, and I love them. You sometimes need to explain some things but it doesn't take more than a sentence of "we can't do this because it would break the other thing".

techer 9y ago
You're totally correct. But I never wanted to. I do love technology and certainly try not to ignorant of current and future technologies. I respect the art of the programmer. But to be slightly rude just to make a point: an average or above average coder is a commodity. In theory many many people could do your job. But a great manager is not a commodity. They are highly prized and compensated. They can break down barriers and fight fight fight. You are right not to be a burden in the conversation. You need to kill your Ego - talking endless confusing bullshit to make yourself seem important is a nightmare. But my MD could be accused of the same the way he had to realign my priorities with that of the company. But when you understand that some of the people on the board of the company I worked for never even use a computer, a bridge is necessary.
- greggman 9y ago
  You compared great managers to average coders. My experience with managers is like many people's. The "average" manager is pretty bad. The average coder is also pretty bad. Both the average manager and the average coder can be replaced pretty easily. The great manager and great coder can not. I can only speak for the programmer side of that though having been involved in interviewing and seeing how hard it is to find people to pass the simplest of questions. But, given my experience with managers I suspect it's just has hard to hire great managers.
  - techer 9y ago
    I think it's easier to find a great coder than a great manager. I could be wrong and totally appreciate your distinction. Edit- and I say that having worked with great coders but not many, if no great managers
    - kpil 9y ago
      Hm, being a bad manager is more visible, and even a good manager will attract more criticism. A mediocre developer can hide behind the team or other circumstances that can be more or less hard to evaluate.
      - wil421 9y ago
        The same can be said of bad managers hiding behind a good team of direct reports. We've all had the bad manager who the owners or higher ups loved to death yet everyone on the team can tell they are incompetent. I'm not talking about the boss you hate but the truly incompentant ones. The place I work now doesn't really care about competence only a body filling a vacancy. Maybe it's time to find a new job...I digress.
    - dvirsky 9y ago
      I've worked with both, and let's agree that they are about equally hard to find, or more precisely hard to hire. To the untrained, though, above average coders and managers may appear great. But only once you've met an actual great one, you can really have perspective.

justboxing 9y ago

> my duty is to act as a bridge betweeen you and my bosses and my customers and my customer service etc. Obligatory 'Office Space' Movie Meme => http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1384740369505006881.jpg http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g13847403...

gamesbrainiac 9y ago

The only thing, is that you can't code? By that do you mean your ability to type stuff into a computer? Being able to engineer software is quite different from "coding". This is typical case of not knowing what you don't know. The manager is basically a group resource that _developers_ use. Instead of thinking of yourself as a boss of developers, think of yourself as a secretary that serves the developer team. For that you don't have to be very skilled, you just need to be able to communicate basic things, and know a little bit of lingo, which I'm sure you've been able to master.

usgroup 9y ago

If you were trolling I'd rank this as medium to high quality bait.

techer 9y ago
I've never intentionally trolled in 25 years on the internet so apologies again. I just know that I fight and deflect for the technical side, listen to their issues and do my best to let them do their jobs, while also have have to liaise with completely and utterly technically illiterate people, marketing especially. As a manager you are also managed. This is in the UK however, which is still relatively in its infancy in this regard.

mmjaa 9y ago

>I could do your job. If I learned how to code. You lost me here. If you can't do my job, you can't manage my job. Period. This lax attitude towards manager competence is little more than forced, groupthink subjugation to the Peters Principle [1] and has created a 'management class' that is little more than a means to undermine the 'technical class' with bullshit, and it is a cancer on our industry. [1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle ]

zimpenfish 9y ago
> If you can't do my job, you can't manage my job. Nonsense. Managing people is a whole other bunch of skills distinct from the skills you need for coding. I won't disagree that a good manager who can code is a bonus though.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  I didn't say they're not mutually incompatible, just that if all you've got is so-called "manager skills", and you still can't do the job of the people you're managing, then Peters Principle is well and truly in effect and the situation is dire - whether you like to think of yourself as a special human for having special management skills or not. Manage me, by all means, using the newest-fangled management psychology you think is necessary, but if you can't do even the most basic of my tasks, you're simply not qualified for the job and should quit. Seriously, this factor is cancerous on the industry and is, I believe, one of the most significant causes of the loss of productivity, revenue and ultimately success in our industry. Its time for this attitude to die.
  - mediocrejoker 9y ago
    The only problem I have with what you are saying is that there do exist good or great coders who go into management and become average or even poor managers. To me this phenomenon would imply the existence of some tangible management skills, separate from technical skills.

3pt14159 9y ago

I want you to be skilled. Very skilled. I've learned software development, software security, machine learning, data analysis, calculus, physical sciences and engineering, technical report writing, photography, the basics of design and colour theory, financial instruments, how to manage projects and people, and the basics of economics and law. It is not too much to expect that a technical manager learn at least one real programming language and use it to ship one real app before they start to try to understand and coordinate developers and designers. This is not too much to expect. I've been learning Russian for over a year and I expect it will be at least another year before I can comfortably have a conversation. You can at least do a Ruby or Objective C over a eight week bootcamp.

caseydurfee 9y ago

As a product manager, do you have developers formally reporting to you? That seems like a bad idea. If a PM doesn't have formal authority over developers but thinks of themselves that way, that's also bad.

techer 9y ago
No. They were not (although lines blur when an emergency happens!) But I was certainly managing them. It was my roadmap, so with nearly everything they worked on the buck stopped with me. I was the one who signed off on all their work, including testing. Including signing off on imperfect work in order to ship! I don't want authority over anyone, I want to work in a creative, sane and pleasant atmosphere. And I love to learn from people. Hopefully they can learn from me.