5 ms·

I would love to see some use cases of what people want to be able to do with DRM'd media that 1) can't be done with current DRM limitations and 2) is within the

I would love to see some use cases of what people want to be able to do with DRM'd media that 1) can't be done with current DRM limitations and 2) is within the guidelines of what the distributor allows (or within the rights given by the user's local government). For example, my local library buys a set number of digital licenses for ebooks, so there's a waitlist system for ebooks and each digital copy is time gated to a certain number of days before becoming unusable. In that time, though, you can read the ebook offline once downloaded through the library's app. Annoying sometimes, but overall seems reasonable. How would that example translate to a non-DRM version while making sure that the library isn't distributing an unbounded number of licenses to customers?

josteink 9y ago
> I would love to see some use cases of what people want to be able to do with DRM'd media that 1) can't be done with current DRM limitations and 2) is within the guidelines of what the distributor allows (or within the rights given by the user's local government). Simple. Play it on any device I own, now and in the future. None of the drm formats sold 20 years ago live on today. Had my collection been based on those, and not open formats, it would be dead now. What makes you think today's DRM will have a different fate?
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> I would love to see some use cases of what people want to be able to do with DRM'd media that 1) can't be done with current DRM limitations and 2) is within the guidelines of what the distributor allows (or within the rights given by the user's local government). Play it on my linux machine? Copy it to a different medium for my own personal use? Inspect it for security vulnerabilities? Build and sell a device that allows you to split the video signal into multiple parts so I can watch it on multiple screens arranged into one large screen? Buy a device that allows me to inject home automation information onto the display on which I am watching it? Do you need more?
- pdkl95 9y ago
  > more? How about the highly experimental, expensive, poor-user-interface, precursors to whatever the next truly innovative killer app will be? We don't know what the really important use cases will be; we don't even know[1] which events or innovations are in the general direction of the next killer app. The very idea that some ideas - aka information, intellectual works, or (bleh) "content" - can be owned is already offensive enough. For DRM to make any kind of sense you first have to presume you can enumerate the ways an idea will be used. If we knew that, we could skip most R&D. Instead of trying artificially re-create scarcity, the Silicon Valley startup culture should be worried about of DRM fencing off next-decade's products. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_%28TV_series%29#Content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_%28TV_series%29#Co...
kuschku 9y ago
Sell an ebook I bought on Amazon via ebay to someone else. Gift an ebook I bought. Refund DRM’d content I bought within of 14 days after sale without significant usage. These are all things that the law says I have the Right to do, yet DRM providers frequently violate these rights.
TeMPOraL 9y ago
I don't think this is a well-formed question, because DRM is generally code implementing 2). That is, things DRM prevents you from doing are pretty much by definition things that are not within the guidelines of publishers. But to treat the question charitably, here's one use case: I want to view the media on whatever devices I happen to own. That is, I want to e.g. start reading a e-book on my PC, continue on my Kindle, and then finish it on my smartwatch. Or my laser projector. Or my fishbowl. Also maybe I think the book's font is simply ugly, and I want to change it. Oh, and my Internet connection is pretty shitty, because I live in a developing nation and/or US rural area, so I'd love to be able to do all of that off-line at times[0]. That was a basic use case. To step it up, imagine I'm doing research. I want to do notes and cross-referencing, and I want to efficiently move around the text. Regular DRM-ed formats tend to make that nigh-impossible[1]. > How would that example translate to a non-DRM version while making sure that the library isn't distributing an unbounded number of licenses to customers? It wouldn't, because DRM is by definition designed to limit you to only a very narrow way of consuming a piece of digital media. Any kind of additional flexibility will make it possible to "distribute an unbound number of licenses" for free. Here's the fundamental conflict - as a consumer, I want to buy/rent a piece of content, as narrowly constrained as possible. In particular, I want the publisher to stop messing with the way I use it and the format I chose to consume. OTOH, publishers have exactly opposite interests - they want to have as much control over my consumption as possible, whether to make more money, to protect against copying, or both. -- [0] - Related, it's kind of ridiculous to have to stream a book from the Internet all the time. DRM does encourage some pretty shitty engineering decisions. [1] - Consider just how much economic damage is being done to society by using DRM to make media usable for lowest common denominator of consumers, while making it much more difficult to use in a specialized way for interesting or important work. It's a huge waste, to take a general-purpose computer and use its power to restrict its own functions.
jonhohle 9y ago
For 1) Do you remember the Walmart music store (hopefully not, but it was a thing about a decade ago). It sold Plays For Sure™ Music with DRM servers operated by Walmart. Then Walmart shut it down and from that point forward users could no longer activate new devices that could read the files they had for. So the use case is simple: play the music they licensed. For 2) why is that an intermediary's responsibility? Can you photocopy a book from the library or book store, copy a CD, strip macrovision from a VHS cassette and record it on a second deck, or hand write a copy of sheet music? Sure. Does it violate the license. Maybe, maybe not. Get get the courts involved. Relatedly, what about the right of first sale? All changes for DRM'd media have benefitted copyright holders. There needs to be a return to balance. (Having to own DHCP enabled products increases cost to the consumer, BD+ makes it difficult for most to backup blu-rays, SACD audio cannot be transported digitally, unencrypted, etc.). DRM (and crazy long copyright extensions) hinders preservation at both the personal and societal levels. Copyrights intention was a limited monopoly in exchange for eventual free access to culturally relevant works. It no longer serves that purpose.
hyperdunc 9y ago
That situation with library ebooks is widespread and is a prime example of imposed artificial scarcity. It seems silly to force tech that effectively provides unlimited supply to conform to the traditional library model of lending. I much prefer a donations based model where anyone can read whatever they like, and then donate to the author if they feel inclined.

josteink 9y ago

> I would love to see some use cases of what people want to be able to do with DRM'd media that 1) can't be done with current DRM limitations and 2) is within the guidelines of what the distributor allows (or within the rights given by the user's local government). Simple. Play it on any device I own, now and in the future. None of the drm formats sold 20 years ago live on today. Had my collection been based on those, and not open formats, it would be dead now. What makes you think today's DRM will have a different fate?

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago

> I would love to see some use cases of what people want to be able to do with DRM'd media that 1) can't be done with current DRM limitations and 2) is within the guidelines of what the distributor allows (or within the rights given by the user's local government). Play it on my linux machine? Copy it to a different medium for my own personal use? Inspect it for security vulnerabilities? Build and sell a device that allows you to split the video signal into multiple parts so I can watch it on multiple screens arranged into one large screen? Buy a device that allows me to inject home automation information onto the display on which I am watching it? Do you need more?

pdkl95 9y ago
> more? How about the highly experimental, expensive, poor-user-interface, precursors to whatever the next truly innovative killer app will be? We don't know what the really important use cases will be; we don't even know[1] which events or innovations are in the general direction of the next killer app. The very idea that some ideas - aka information, intellectual works, or (bleh) "content" - can be owned is already offensive enough. For DRM to make any kind of sense you first have to presume you can enumerate the ways an idea will be used. If we knew that, we could skip most R&D. Instead of trying artificially re-create scarcity, the Silicon Valley startup culture should be worried about of DRM fencing off next-decade's products. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_%28TV_series%29#Content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_%28TV_series%29#Co...

kuschku 9y ago

Sell an ebook I bought on Amazon via ebay to someone else. Gift an ebook I bought. Refund DRM’d content I bought within of 14 days after sale without significant usage. These are all things that the law says I have the Right to do, yet DRM providers frequently violate these rights.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

I don't think this is a well-formed question, because DRM is generally code implementing 2). That is, things DRM prevents you from doing are pretty much by definition things that are not within the guidelines of publishers. But to treat the question charitably, here's one use case: I want to view the media on whatever devices I happen to own. That is, I want to e.g. start reading a e-book on my PC, continue on my Kindle, and then finish it on my smartwatch. Or my laser projector. Or my fishbowl. Also maybe I think the book's font is simply ugly, and I want to change it. Oh, and my Internet connection is pretty shitty, because I live in a developing nation and/or US rural area, so I'd love to be able to do all of that off-line at times[0]. That was a basic use case. To step it up, imagine I'm doing research. I want to do notes and cross-referencing, and I want to efficiently move around the text. Regular DRM-ed formats tend to make that nigh-impossible[1]. > How would that example translate to a non-DRM version while making sure that the library isn't distributing an unbounded number of licenses to customers? It wouldn't, because DRM is by definition designed to limit you to only a very narrow way of consuming a piece of digital media. Any kind of additional flexibility will make it possible to "distribute an unbound number of licenses" for free. Here's the fundamental conflict - as a consumer, I want to buy/rent a piece of content, as narrowly constrained as possible. In particular, I want the publisher to stop messing with the way I use it and the format I chose to consume. OTOH, publishers have exactly opposite interests - they want to have as much control over my consumption as possible, whether to make more money, to protect against copying, or both. -- [0] - Related, it's kind of ridiculous to have to stream a book from the Internet all the time. DRM does encourage some pretty shitty engineering decisions. [1] - Consider just how much economic damage is being done to society by using DRM to make media usable for lowest common denominator of consumers, while making it much more difficult to use in a specialized way for interesting or important work. It's a huge waste, to take a general-purpose computer and use its power to restrict its own functions.

jonhohle 9y ago

For 1) Do you remember the Walmart music store (hopefully not, but it was a thing about a decade ago). It sold Plays For Sure™ Music with DRM servers operated by Walmart. Then Walmart shut it down and from that point forward users could no longer activate new devices that could read the files they had for. So the use case is simple: play the music they licensed. For 2) why is that an intermediary's responsibility? Can you photocopy a book from the library or book store, copy a CD, strip macrovision from a VHS cassette and record it on a second deck, or hand write a copy of sheet music? Sure. Does it violate the license. Maybe, maybe not. Get get the courts involved. Relatedly, what about the right of first sale? All changes for DRM'd media have benefitted copyright holders. There needs to be a return to balance. (Having to own DHCP enabled products increases cost to the consumer, BD+ makes it difficult for most to backup blu-rays, SACD audio cannot be transported digitally, unencrypted, etc.). DRM (and crazy long copyright extensions) hinders preservation at both the personal and societal levels. Copyrights intention was a limited monopoly in exchange for eventual free access to culturally relevant works. It no longer serves that purpose.

hyperdunc 9y ago

That situation with library ebooks is widespread and is a prime example of imposed artificial scarcity. It seems silly to force tech that effectively provides unlimited supply to conform to the traditional library model of lending. I much prefer a donations based model where anyone can read whatever they like, and then donate to the author if they feel inclined.