3 ms·

I can certainly sympathize with this viewpoint and even share it in some ways. However, I think it's a bit hyperbolic to call them world-class when you view the

I can certainly sympathize with this viewpoint and even share it in some ways. However, I think it's a bit hyperbolic to call them world-class when you view their accomplishments through a lens that accounts for their human rights violations and atrocities. Very few governments in the world can claim to be completely void of these violations, but China is particularly egregious in this regard.

mistermann 9y ago
> human rights violations and atrocities Are they really though? Indeed they abuse political dissidents and disallow free speech, but are there really that many people that violate these rules any more? It's a valid worldview to say "that doesn't matter", but not everyone agrees with that stance. A (mostly) benevolent dictatorship is a perfectly valid form of rule if you ask me.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > Are they really though? Indeed they abuse political dissidents and disallow free speech, but are there really that many people that violate these rules any more? A kidnap victim getting Stockholm Syndrome doesn't make the kidnapping OK. Bad rules are a problem even if people follow them.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    How many people are actually getting kidnapped is certainly relevant. And "bad" (often a matter of philosophical opinion) rules may be a problem, but how big of a problem, and should also be compared to the relative success of alternatives, such as "freedom" as enjoyed in the USA, and it's current trajectory of aggregate economic success and personal happiness. Personally, I think China doesn't have very much to be ashamed of, and much to be proud of.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      "Kidnapping isn't that bad if it doesn't happen often" as an argument means I'm bowing out at this point.
      - mistermann 9y ago
        If deliberately misunderstanding genuine discussion is your approach, it's probably just as well.

3 ms·

I can certainly sympathize with this viewpoint and even share it in some ways. However, I think it's a bit hyperbolic to call them world-class when you view the

by HorizonXP 9y ago

mistermann 9y ago
> human rights violations and atrocities Are they really though? Indeed they abuse political dissidents and disallow free speech, but are there really that many people that violate these rules any more? It's a valid worldview to say "that doesn't matter", but not everyone agrees with that stance. A (mostly) benevolent dictatorship is a perfectly valid form of rule if you ask me.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > Are they really though? Indeed they abuse political dissidents and disallow free speech, but are there really that many people that violate these rules any more? A kidnap victim getting Stockholm Syndrome doesn't make the kidnapping OK. Bad rules are a problem even if people follow them.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    How many people are actually getting kidnapped is certainly relevant. And "bad" (often a matter of philosophical opinion) rules may be a problem, but how big of a problem, and should also be compared to the relative success of alternatives, such as "freedom" as enjoyed in the USA, and it's current trajectory of aggregate economic success and personal happiness. Personally, I think China doesn't have very much to be ashamed of, and much to be proud of.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      "Kidnapping isn't that bad if it doesn't happen often" as an argument means I'm bowing out at this point.
      - mistermann 9y ago
        If deliberately misunderstanding genuine discussion is your approach, it's probably just as well.