5 ms·

Nobody in America has to do this kind of work anymore. Some do it by choice but usually work on something they are really into, like Pro-Tools or iPhone softwar

Nobody in America has to do this kind of work anymore. Some do it by choice but usually work on something they are really into, like Pro-Tools or iPhone software, or something where you make a lot more money, like Wall Street (or iPhone software). I have not had to do anything remotely resembling reversing a linked list in C since 1994. Since then, the further I've gotten away from C and algorithms, the more I've gotten paid... Your best bet is to recruit in Russia/Eastern Europe/India/China. Edit: before I get downvoted into oblivion, I didn't mean this disparagingly, I am just being matter of fact. It will be easier to hire people from those countries. Most Americans who do this work already have a job. Most Americans looking for a job, don't want to do this, or don't know how. I have worked with guys from Croatia who helped write some database driver code for me and were excellent.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago
I do this kind of work daily. I work in drivers, protocols and other operating system places. No need to denigrate folks who do (or don't do) this kind of programming. Its just the difference between an applications programmer (who codes state-transitions for large state machines) and system programmers (who create those libraries everybody else uses).
IgorPartola 16y ago
Nobody in America (meaning no programmers) has a reason not to know this stuff. You don't have to do it on daily basis to understand it. I have never in my life had to reverse a linked list, but I know how to do it. I don't see how these are unreasonable questions to ask, especially for a company that develops a database engine.
- starkfist 16y ago
  They aren't unreasonable demands, I'm just suggesting it's going to be easier to find people outside of the USA.
  - IgorPartola 16y ago
    Heh well that's true. My father was an one such developer before he came here. The only problem is that if you outsource like that you might or might not get quite what you want. You either have really smart folks working for you or you are dealing with a scam and don't know it. Lots of success and horror stories on this front. For me face to face time is very important so I would look elsewhere first but you may be right.
amalcon 16y ago
Here's the thing: you're not being asked to reverse a linked list because they expect you to implement one. 99% of the time, you'll just use a library (the other 1%, you're writing the library). You're being asked to reverse a linked list because it's bloody easy if you understand the fundamentals (what a linked-list is, how a loop works).
- starkfist 16y ago
  I realize that but wishing that people applying for jobs actually knew what they are doing unfortunately is not going to help much. You can make a whole career without understanding linked lists. If you need people to work on database internals you either have to hire from the areas I mentioned or figure out how to poach people already doing this kind of work. The pool of applicants who just send in their resume generally does not contain the programmers you actually want to hire.
  - amalcon 16y ago
    To someone who does know about this stuff, though, it seems completely fundamental. It's a total mystery (to me at least) how a half-decent programmer could avoid getting curious enough to figure out what a linked list is. There's at least one other place you can get competent people who know about the fundamentals: academia. This is why Google tries so hard to lure people from academia.
    - starkfist 16y ago
      I wouldn't bet on that. It really depends on what they are doing in academia. You can get through some programs without doing much programming at all. They even mention in the post that a PhD failed the phone screen.
- swolchok 16y ago
  You've probably also been asked to do it at some point during your formal CS education, if you had one. Grading this problem on the final for the introductory CS course was a load of fun, let me tell you... (and yet, I had to do the exercise myself just now, because I haven't touched that stuff in a couple years and I was worried I'd forgotten!)
Tichy 16y ago
I recently started a new job and in the second week implemented one binary search algorithm and a sort of Levenshtein distance thing. I almost felt like celebrating - I don't expect another opportunity to do that kind of thing any time soon (at that job anyway). And these are really simple algorithms.
arghnoname 16y ago
That's bizarre. I happen to enjoy it, and while I would grant you this isn't the norm, I don't think it is exceptional either. Some people, maybe most people, can't be bothered to deal with the hassles of lower level work. Myself, I don't have to re-invent every wheel in the world, but when I had a web dev job I found I had gone a year without actually writing anything but glue. For people like me, the feeling is "what's the point?" Don't ask me why the finicky lower level stuff is any different, but for me, for some reason, it really is.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago

I do this kind of work daily. I work in drivers, protocols and other operating system places. No need to denigrate folks who do (or don't do) this kind of programming. Its just the difference between an applications programmer (who codes state-transitions for large state machines) and system programmers (who create those libraries everybody else uses).

IgorPartola 16y ago

Nobody in America (meaning no programmers) has a reason not to know this stuff. You don't have to do it on daily basis to understand it. I have never in my life had to reverse a linked list, but I know how to do it. I don't see how these are unreasonable questions to ask, especially for a company that develops a database engine.

starkfist 16y ago
They aren't unreasonable demands, I'm just suggesting it's going to be easier to find people outside of the USA.
- IgorPartola 16y ago
  Heh well that's true. My father was an one such developer before he came here. The only problem is that if you outsource like that you might or might not get quite what you want. You either have really smart folks working for you or you are dealing with a scam and don't know it. Lots of success and horror stories on this front. For me face to face time is very important so I would look elsewhere first but you may be right.

amalcon 16y ago

Here's the thing: you're not being asked to reverse a linked list because they expect you to implement one. 99% of the time, you'll just use a library (the other 1%, you're writing the library). You're being asked to reverse a linked list because it's bloody easy if you understand the fundamentals (what a linked-list is, how a loop works).

starkfist 16y ago
I realize that but wishing that people applying for jobs actually knew what they are doing unfortunately is not going to help much. You can make a whole career without understanding linked lists. If you need people to work on database internals you either have to hire from the areas I mentioned or figure out how to poach people already doing this kind of work. The pool of applicants who just send in their resume generally does not contain the programmers you actually want to hire.
- amalcon 16y ago
  To someone who does know about this stuff, though, it seems completely fundamental. It's a total mystery (to me at least) how a half-decent programmer could avoid getting curious enough to figure out what a linked list is. There's at least one other place you can get competent people who know about the fundamentals: academia. This is why Google tries so hard to lure people from academia.
  - starkfist 16y ago
    I wouldn't bet on that. It really depends on what they are doing in academia. You can get through some programs without doing much programming at all. They even mention in the post that a PhD failed the phone screen.
swolchok 16y ago
You've probably also been asked to do it at some point during your formal CS education, if you had one. Grading this problem on the final for the introductory CS course was a load of fun, let me tell you... (and yet, I had to do the exercise myself just now, because I haven't touched that stuff in a couple years and I was worried I'd forgotten!)

Tichy 16y ago

I recently started a new job and in the second week implemented one binary search algorithm and a sort of Levenshtein distance thing. I almost felt like celebrating - I don't expect another opportunity to do that kind of thing any time soon (at that job anyway). And these are really simple algorithms.

arghnoname 16y ago

That's bizarre. I happen to enjoy it, and while I would grant you this isn't the norm, I don't think it is exceptional either. Some people, maybe most people, can't be bothered to deal with the hassles of lower level work. Myself, I don't have to re-invent every wheel in the world, but when I had a web dev job I found I had gone a year without actually writing anything but glue. For people like me, the feeling is "what's the point?" Don't ask me why the finicky lower level stuff is any different, but for me, for some reason, it really is.