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The United States justice system, as well as that of most common wealth countries, is based not on safety or rehabilitation but on vengeance and systemic racism

The United States justice system, as well as that of most common wealth countries, is based not on safety or rehabilitation but on vengeance and systemic racism. To claim otherwise, when the United States has institutionalized slavery ("Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.") and more prisoners per capita or by absolute number than any other country on this planet is naive at best. The overcrowding at every prison, chronic corruption and mismanagement, privatization of the system and unionization of its beneficiaries, and lack of all but the cheapest rehabilitation programs makes it nearly impossible for convicts to reenter society and become productive members. Texas is one of the most egregious examples - especially given that they speed up the appeals process on purpose and have shit for oversight on forensic science in criminal cases. Texas alone has executed over 500 people since 1980, many of them borderline too mentally incompetent to stand trial, let alone face death row. Combine that with a culturally accepted racism among law enforcement, itchy trigger fingers, zero training for how to actually deal with people, and a cultural obsession with violence and you get the United States: a place where entire communities of Latinos and African Americans are decimated because a significant fraction of their working age males are stuck in a tiny cell with nothing to learn except more crime and nothing to do when they get out except more crime. Countries with prison systems that try to rehabilitate, like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc., regularly close prisons and they have an amazing track record with recidivism. People like to claim "blah blah homogeneous society blah blah" but the fact is that common wealth countries like to kill and enslave people to punish them - often because they view it as doing "God's work." We do not have justice systems, we have vengeance factories.

MichaelGG 9y ago
I'm very unimpressed with the US justice system and agree with a lot of what you say. But does this really explain a massively disproportionate homicide rate among certain groups in the US? Sure for lesser or non-crimes like drugs there can be massively unfair, racist enforcement and penalties. For rape, sure, certain groups will get away with it. But for homicide? Are murders being selectively investigated? As far as Norway and "blah blah homogenous society" do they not also show a heavy bias in crimes committed by the "non homogenous" population there?
- Someone 9y ago
  "But for homicide? Are murders being selectively investigated?" There's a scale from accident, via involuntary manslaugher to murder. There may well be bias in judging what to prosecute. Also, laws such "three strikes you are out" may lead to more murders. If, say, you're a burglar with two strikes, and a house owner wakes up and recognizes you, hitting him hard out of fear for that third strike becomes more likely. Similarly, racial bias by the police may make people so wary of "he said, she said" situations that they will 'snap' and kill someone instead (IMO, many people convicted for murder aren't cold-blooded killers, but mentally not the most stable persons who have been dealt a socially unfavorable card in life)
  - MichaelGG 9y ago
    Very good points, thank you. I wonder if there studies that show what kind of impact this has, overall? Probably hard to measure without finding an area that had a rapid racial change in government. I guess I was just objecting to the idea that "racism" is the cause for these statistical imbalances, especially since you see the same kind of thing happening in Europe which would seem, at least on the surface, to have less racism issues, no? But perhaps I'm wrong since a lot of good people think the opposite, but it's hard to tell since it's so politicized and sensitive, just like anything about race.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      It is absolutely not the case that Europe has less problems with racism than the United States. Racism is a very real problem throughout pretty much all of Europe.
      - MichaelGG 9y ago
        Interesting. So e.g. Norway has a similar level of racism towards blacks as the US does? Why?
        tptacek 9y ago
mc32 9y ago
It's not only commonwealth countries though. Most of the world, be they old countries or new, old world, new world, southern hemisphere, northern, poor, or wealthy have the similar systems. The Nordics are the exception when it comes to focus on rehabilitation. Not to say they are right, or wrong, just that at this point in history they are the exception.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Really wish people would look at the demographics of Nordic countries before citing them. They are models, but they are also facing completely different dynamics than pretty much every other country. Wealthy and secure and: * Denmark - 5.7 million people, 80% of whom are Danish * Norway - 5.1 million people, in 1992 95% were native * Sweden - 10 million, the largest non-Swedish ethnic group being the Finns at 150k You can drive an hour's radius through many big US metros and cover more people than those countries and within that radius find swaths of hundreds of thousands of people of various ethnic groups. These population numbers really pale compared to anything in East Asia though even if they are homogeneous (don't discount how much that helps social dynamics). The demographics are shifting in Nordic countries but they a really are extreme outliers worthy of praise and recognition that they are outliers. edit to include reply: You are talking about demographics. How can it be irrelevant? The US is in the situation it is in because an entire demographic was transplanted here against their will due to slavery. Nordic countries do not have this situation (good!) so the potential remedies are different. The only way to solve problems is to effectively diagnose them. You might not like that the US isn't a country of 5 million people with 80% native population which makes policy a lot easier, but that's reality. We can't make things better unless we recognize that and figure out the proper solution within this setting and not some other. It's not racist to recognize that and it's wrong to call someone a racist because they are searching for solutions.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - civilitty 9y ago
    The demographics are entirely irrelevant to this discussion and I really wish people would stop bringing it up because it's the same type of racist thinking that causes police to disproportionately target African American males. Rampant recidivism, a vengeful justice system, and an entirely ineffectual mental health treatment are the real problems - not the density, skin color, or socioeconomics of urban populations. Crime in those environments is driven by a nearly inescapable cycle of political and economic disenfranchisement starting in childhood and ending in a prison cell. It is a massive self-reinforcing feedback loop. If we had even an ounce of the empathy and rational approach to public safety that the Nordic countries had, we wouldn't be having this discussion and that feedback loop would have been broken a century ago.
vacri 9y ago
> The United States justice system, as well as that of most common wealth countries, is based not on safety or rehabilitation but on vengeance and systemic racism. Whoah, don't tarnish everyone else with the fucked-up brush of the US system. > Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc., regularly close prisons https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/norwegian-inmates-sent-to-dutch-prison-cells-too-full https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/norwegian-inma... No justice system is perfect, but let's avoid the black/white scandanavia/ROW thing. The scandanavians do well, yes, but they're not the only ones that use rehabilitation. > the fact is that common wealth countries like to kill and enslave people to punish them Where do you see slavery or capital punishment in modern commonwealth countries? We're not in the 19th century anymore. I assume you actually meant Dominion countries and not commonwealth countries, but even so, which modern commonwealth countries have capital punishment? More importantly, how do you see it as a characteristic of a commonwealth country in general.
robotresearcher 9y ago
Which commonwealth country executes prisoners? The US is not a commonwealth country.

MichaelGG 9y ago

I'm very unimpressed with the US justice system and agree with a lot of what you say. But does this really explain a massively disproportionate homicide rate among certain groups in the US? Sure for lesser or non-crimes like drugs there can be massively unfair, racist enforcement and penalties. For rape, sure, certain groups will get away with it. But for homicide? Are murders being selectively investigated? As far as Norway and "blah blah homogenous society" do they not also show a heavy bias in crimes committed by the "non homogenous" population there?

Someone 9y ago
"But for homicide? Are murders being selectively investigated?" There's a scale from accident, via involuntary manslaugher to murder. There may well be bias in judging what to prosecute. Also, laws such "three strikes you are out" may lead to more murders. If, say, you're a burglar with two strikes, and a house owner wakes up and recognizes you, hitting him hard out of fear for that third strike becomes more likely. Similarly, racial bias by the police may make people so wary of "he said, she said" situations that they will 'snap' and kill someone instead (IMO, many people convicted for murder aren't cold-blooded killers, but mentally not the most stable persons who have been dealt a socially unfavorable card in life)
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  Very good points, thank you. I wonder if there studies that show what kind of impact this has, overall? Probably hard to measure without finding an area that had a rapid racial change in government. I guess I was just objecting to the idea that "racism" is the cause for these statistical imbalances, especially since you see the same kind of thing happening in Europe which would seem, at least on the surface, to have less racism issues, no? But perhaps I'm wrong since a lot of good people think the opposite, but it's hard to tell since it's so politicized and sensitive, just like anything about race.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    It is absolutely not the case that Europe has less problems with racism than the United States. Racism is a very real problem throughout pretty much all of Europe.
    - MichaelGG 9y ago
      Interesting. So e.g. Norway has a similar level of racism towards blacks as the US does? Why?
      - tptacek 9y ago

mc32 9y ago

It's not only commonwealth countries though. Most of the world, be they old countries or new, old world, new world, southern hemisphere, northern, poor, or wealthy have the similar systems. The Nordics are the exception when it comes to focus on rehabilitation. Not to say they are right, or wrong, just that at this point in history they are the exception.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
Really wish people would look at the demographics of Nordic countries before citing them. They are models, but they are also facing completely different dynamics than pretty much every other country. Wealthy and secure and: * Denmark - 5.7 million people, 80% of whom are Danish * Norway - 5.1 million people, in 1992 95% were native * Sweden - 10 million, the largest non-Swedish ethnic group being the Finns at 150k You can drive an hour's radius through many big US metros and cover more people than those countries and within that radius find swaths of hundreds of thousands of people of various ethnic groups. These population numbers really pale compared to anything in East Asia though even if they are homogeneous (don't discount how much that helps social dynamics). The demographics are shifting in Nordic countries but they a really are extreme outliers worthy of praise and recognition that they are outliers. edit to include reply: You are talking about demographics. How can it be irrelevant? The US is in the situation it is in because an entire demographic was transplanted here against their will due to slavery. Nordic countries do not have this situation (good!) so the potential remedies are different. The only way to solve problems is to effectively diagnose them. You might not like that the US isn't a country of 5 million people with 80% native population which makes policy a lot easier, but that's reality. We can't make things better unless we recognize that and figure out the proper solution within this setting and not some other. It's not racist to recognize that and it's wrong to call someone a racist because they are searching for solutions.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- civilitty 9y ago
  The demographics are entirely irrelevant to this discussion and I really wish people would stop bringing it up because it's the same type of racist thinking that causes police to disproportionately target African American males. Rampant recidivism, a vengeful justice system, and an entirely ineffectual mental health treatment are the real problems - not the density, skin color, or socioeconomics of urban populations. Crime in those environments is driven by a nearly inescapable cycle of political and economic disenfranchisement starting in childhood and ending in a prison cell. It is a massive self-reinforcing feedback loop. If we had even an ounce of the empathy and rational approach to public safety that the Nordic countries had, we wouldn't be having this discussion and that feedback loop would have been broken a century ago.

vacri 9y ago

> The United States justice system, as well as that of most common wealth countries, is based not on safety or rehabilitation but on vengeance and systemic racism. Whoah, don't tarnish everyone else with the fucked-up brush of the US system. > Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc., regularly close prisons https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/norwegian-inmates-sent-to-dutch-prison-cells-too-full https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/01/norwegian-inma... No justice system is perfect, but let's avoid the black/white scandanavia/ROW thing. The scandanavians do well, yes, but they're not the only ones that use rehabilitation. > the fact is that common wealth countries like to kill and enslave people to punish them Where do you see slavery or capital punishment in modern commonwealth countries? We're not in the 19th century anymore. I assume you actually meant Dominion countries and not commonwealth countries, but even so, which modern commonwealth countries have capital punishment? More importantly, how do you see it as a characteristic of a commonwealth country in general.

robotresearcher 9y ago

Which commonwealth country executes prisoners? The US is not a commonwealth country.