7 ms·

Evolution of Sexual Intimidation: Male Baboons Beat Up Females, Increases Mating

50 points by shawndumas 9y ago

Mikeb85 9y ago
Makes sense. Evolution favours the strong and works to ensure survival, not happiness.
sethbannon 9y ago
I look forward to the day a majority of people realize that our biology is, to a large extent, something to be overcome. Our "natural" biological impulses are often incredibly destructive, for both ourselves (e.g. sugar cravings) and for those around us (e.g. the impulses in this article).
- Aron 9y ago
  Most people spend a great deal of time fighting their impulses in order to behave in a proper socialized manner: go to work, be nice, clean up, call your mom, don't procrastinate, etc.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    The really frustrating part is that people that do not behave in a 'proper' way often seem to get way ahead in life. No such thing as a just world.
    - Aron 9y ago
      yeah -- but most of them don't.
    - avaer 9y ago
      Believing in a just world is another quirk of biology to overcome.
    - dgut 9y ago
      Do they? Care to elaborate?
      - sidlls 9y ago
        Here's an article with links to other resources indicating that sociopathic/psycopathic behavior has a higher prevalence in people who we generally consider "successful" or to have "got ahead" (e.g. CEOs): http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/18/why-psychopaths-are-so-good-at-getting-ahead.html http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/18/why-psychopaths-are-so-good-a... Note: I'm not claiming the article is "proof" of the contention, just that it indicates support for the parent's assertion. Other items may counter the assertion, of course.
    - laretluval 9y ago
      Almost as if the "proper" behavior isn't really optimal...
      - dwaltrip 9y ago
        Perhaps the better conclusion is that the concepts of "proper behavior" or "optimal outcome" can often be misleading or ill-posed.
    - chongli 9y ago
      The stages of development: 1. Understand anything 2. Understand the rules 3. Follow the rules 4. Break some of the rules 5. Make new rules
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      Economics and game theory tell us that into all systems, a bit of suckage must come. If you take a subversive look at the history of the United States, it would seem that groups of people here all lift themselves out of poverty through a combination of entrepreneurship and shameless graft/cheating/crime. I don't think the US has been free of some kind of group strife / domestic terrorism since the 2nd presidential administration. That's also when one political side accusing the other side of being horrible people who would bring about the end of the nation started. The older I get, the more Stratfor's geographic interpretation of history and geopolitics makes sense.
    - barrkel 9y ago
      You've seen the rate of A (improper ways) given B (success), but that doesn't tell us about the rate of B given A.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but it's profound to think our goal is to evolve to no longer be human. Perhaps machine intelligence will be the better version of ourselves; we're just the bootstrap code.
  - aracari 9y ago
    This is actually my theory of life -- humanity will eventually create a "perfect" version of ourselves, which with then exterminate us because we are inferior, and then the AI-human race will create a perfect society and branch off to explore the universe.
    - Aron 9y ago
      This is also how I see things going. Humans end more or less, and give birth to machine children. I don't think any part of it will be perfect though. It'll just be some starting condition playing out according to platonic principles interacting with arbitrary specifics like how far the nearest reserve of iron is in the universe, etc.
      - rfrank 9y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(novel)
        Aron 9y ago
        I'm not clever enough to relate these to each other.
        rfrank 9y ago
        The broader conversation about the desirability of separating ourselves from our humanity is what made me think of the novel, because it's ultimately about the importance of choice (especially the UK version with the final chapter included). > In the final chapter, Alex finds himself halfheartedly preparing for yet another night of crime with a new gang (Lenn, Rick, Bully). After a chance encounter with Pete, who has reformed and married, Alex finds himself taking less and less pleasure in acts of senseless violence. He begins contemplating giving up crime himself to become a productive member of society and start a family of his own, while reflecting on the notion that his own children will be just as destructive as he has been, if not more so. Broadly speaking, the whole sentiment makes me uneasy, especially given how powerful a tool the internet can be for consensus building.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Our "natural" biological impulses are often incredibly destructive Tribalism is easily the most destructive of our impulses, especially in the way in which it can interact with ideology. Through ideology, such tribal impulses can camouflage their own effects and short circuit the "better angels of our nature" to excuse the dehumanization end even the slaughter of the out group. I think that's the last great barrier to humans finally "waking up from history." In particular, the way tribalism and in-group/out-group psychology interposes itself into political discussions is especially pernicious -- especially in the ways it manifests over the internet in social media. Fear isn't the mind killer. It's ideology combined with tribalism! If humankind ever destroys itself, in all likelihood, some group will have ideologically convinced itself that it should do so for some incredibly noble reasons.
  - zamalek 9y ago
    > some group will have ideologically convinced itself that it should do so for some incredibly noble reasons. "Climate change is a natural process and we shouldn't interfere with it."
  - jrs95 9y ago
    >If humankind ever destroys itself, in all likelihood, some group will have ideologically convinced itself that it should do so for some incredibly noble reasons. You mean like the people commenting here advocating replacing us with AI?
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-emotion-goes-viral-fastest-180950182/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-emotion-go... Pretty much anyone on the internet that gets traction is using outrage to spread their message. Since the emotions that cause viral spread on the internet are only outrage, lust, and awe, some huge whopping fraction of all communications on the internet through social media results in positions so extreme, someone eventually basically advocates destroying the human race or some large swathe of it. It's like Godwin's Law. It's most certainly related to that, come to think of it. Douglas Adams was a prophet! http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6458-meanwhile-the-poor-babel-fish-by-effectively-removing-all-barriers http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6458-meanwhile-the-poor-babe...
- drewrv 9y ago
  I've been thinking of this as a sci-fi concept recently. On Star Trek all the other races have this singular defining trait, vulcans are logical, klingons are warriors, ferengi are greedy. The defining trait of humans is going against their natural impulses. We evolved from violent savage apes yet strive toward peace. Some choose veganism. Others choose celibacy.
  - Fricken 9y ago
    Wasn't Captain Kirk the one always going with his gut instinct? The Vulcans were once an extremely emotional and violent race. Their logical traits are the result of generations of disciplined mastery over their natural impulses.
    - qbrass 9y ago
      McCoy was usually the one making the emotional appeal to the captain for the audience's sake. And humans in general were the emotional ones. However, Kirk was supposed to be the moderate one that didn't give-way to pure logic or emotion and find the best solution somewhere in between. Which was the moral of the story of the week.
    - drewrv 9y ago
      I suppose so, I was always more of a TNG nerd.
- avaer 9y ago
  I prefer to think of it as: one person's destructive biological impulse is another person's effective business idea. If you recognize it you can vaccinate yourself.
- dahart 9y ago
  That is a truly deep thought, I love it. I also think it's begging for clarity - it's right and wrong at the same time depending on what we're talking about. Whether our "natural" impulses are destructive, they were evolutionary advantages when it comes to pure survival for long periods of history. Craving sugar was a good thing until the last century. The sexual impulses that lead to higher mating success are also evolutionary advantages despite their being destructive and socially unacceptable. There are known parallels in humans to what this article is talking about. The book "Sperm Wars" mentions many of them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_Wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_Wars The authors go to great lengths to denounce violent behavior, but nonetheless discuss the evolutionary advantages of some behaviors that we do not allow socially.
- ams6110 9y ago
  Look forward to the day? Religion (for whatever its faults) figured this out a long time ago. Man (by which I mean humans) is inherently sinful, though we are intelligent enough to recognize it and be responsible for it. It takes work, guidance, and discipline to live a righteous life.
- lj3 9y ago
  > I look forward to the day a majority of people realize that our biology is, to a large extent, something to be overcome. I look forward to the day a majority of people realize that our biology is something that cannot be overcome. You work with mother nature or you get crushed by her. Those are the only choices available to us.
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    Even if you override the natural instincts, you have to replace them with some other form of behavior. There is no ideal set of behaviors, unless you strip all humanity from a species. Once you overcome the 'hurdle' of 'undesirable' behaviors, you just adopt a new set of behaviors, which could be, in the long run, just as detrimental as the ones we have now. I think Brave New World describes this quite well. The world where everyone is happy isn't necessarily the one that wouldn't be shocking to us in its behavioral patterns.
sawyer 9y ago
The article ends with: "It doesn’t mean it has an evolutionary basis." If not evolution, then what? Doesn't all behavior have an evolutionary basis?
- acchow 9y ago
  No. There is a technical term for this - can someone help me out? I can't remember it....
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Philanthropy? Selflessness? Sacrifice?
  - artgon 9y ago
    Yes. They're called non-adaptive traits or spandrels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology)
esaym 9y ago
Don't really see anything new here. Grew up on a farm. Cats beat the crap out of each other in mating season. Horses as well. The stud will typically bite the crap out of her or run her through a fence repeatedly
dildo_fingers 9y ago
Fuck Newsweek
respiratory 9y ago
My long-term lover enjoys being slapped, choked, and generally degraded during sex. Doing these actions increases the amount of mating we indulge in. Through this effect, I too find myself conditioned to sexual arousal in these circumstances, noticeably increasing the extent of my tumescence. There are plenty of other females out there who desire similar treatment. Perhaps humans are not so different to baboons in this regard?
- antisthenes 9y ago
  More than 50% of women have a rape fantasy[1], so...probably? source: [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19085605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19085605

50 points by shawndumas 9y ago

Makes sense. Evolution favours the strong and works to ensure survival, not happiness.

I look forward to the day a majority of people realize that our biology is, to a large extent, something to be overcome. Our "natural" biological impulses are often incredibly destructive, for both ourselves (e.g. sugar cravings) and for those around us (e.g. the impulses in this article).

Aron 9y ago
Most people spend a great deal of time fighting their impulses in order to behave in a proper socialized manner: go to work, be nice, clean up, call your mom, don't procrastinate, etc.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  The really frustrating part is that people that do not behave in a 'proper' way often seem to get way ahead in life. No such thing as a just world.
  - Aron 9y ago
    yeah -- but most of them don't.
  - avaer 9y ago
    Believing in a just world is another quirk of biology to overcome.
  - dgut 9y ago
    Do they? Care to elaborate?
    - sidlls 9y ago
      Here's an article with links to other resources indicating that sociopathic/psycopathic behavior has a higher prevalence in people who we generally consider "successful" or to have "got ahead" (e.g. CEOs): http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/18/why-psychopaths-are-so-good-at-getting-ahead.html http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/18/why-psychopaths-are-so-good-a... Note: I'm not claiming the article is "proof" of the contention, just that it indicates support for the parent's assertion. Other items may counter the assertion, of course.
  - laretluval 9y ago
    Almost as if the "proper" behavior isn't really optimal...
    - dwaltrip 9y ago
      Perhaps the better conclusion is that the concepts of "proper behavior" or "optimal outcome" can often be misleading or ill-posed.
  - chongli 9y ago
    The stages of development: 1. Understand anything 2. Understand the rules 3. Follow the rules 4. Break some of the rules 5. Make new rules
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Economics and game theory tell us that into all systems, a bit of suckage must come. If you take a subversive look at the history of the United States, it would seem that groups of people here all lift themselves out of poverty through a combination of entrepreneurship and shameless graft/cheating/crime. I don't think the US has been free of some kind of group strife / domestic terrorism since the 2nd presidential administration. That's also when one political side accusing the other side of being horrible people who would bring about the end of the nation started. The older I get, the more Stratfor's geographic interpretation of history and geopolitics makes sense.
  - barrkel 9y ago
    You've seen the rate of A (improper ways) given B (success), but that doesn't tell us about the rate of B given A.
toomuchtodo 9y ago
I don't disagree with you, but it's profound to think our goal is to evolve to no longer be human. Perhaps machine intelligence will be the better version of ourselves; we're just the bootstrap code.
- aracari 9y ago
  This is actually my theory of life -- humanity will eventually create a "perfect" version of ourselves, which with then exterminate us because we are inferior, and then the AI-human race will create a perfect society and branch off to explore the universe.
  - Aron 9y ago
    This is also how I see things going. Humans end more or less, and give birth to machine children. I don't think any part of it will be perfect though. It'll just be some starting condition playing out according to platonic principles interacting with arbitrary specifics like how far the nearest reserve of iron is in the universe, etc.
    - rfrank 9y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange_(novel)
      - Aron 9y ago
        I'm not clever enough to relate these to each other.
        rfrank 9y ago
        The broader conversation about the desirability of separating ourselves from our humanity is what made me think of the novel, because it's ultimately about the importance of choice (especially the UK version with the final chapter included). > In the final chapter, Alex finds himself halfheartedly preparing for yet another night of crime with a new gang (Lenn, Rick, Bully). After a chance encounter with Pete, who has reformed and married, Alex finds himself taking less and less pleasure in acts of senseless violence. He begins contemplating giving up crime himself to become a productive member of society and start a family of his own, while reflecting on the notion that his own children will be just as destructive as he has been, if not more so. Broadly speaking, the whole sentiment makes me uneasy, especially given how powerful a tool the internet can be for consensus building.
stcredzero 9y ago
Our "natural" biological impulses are often incredibly destructive Tribalism is easily the most destructive of our impulses, especially in the way in which it can interact with ideology. Through ideology, such tribal impulses can camouflage their own effects and short circuit the "better angels of our nature" to excuse the dehumanization end even the slaughter of the out group. I think that's the last great barrier to humans finally "waking up from history." In particular, the way tribalism and in-group/out-group psychology interposes itself into political discussions is especially pernicious -- especially in the ways it manifests over the internet in social media. Fear isn't the mind killer. It's ideology combined with tribalism! If humankind ever destroys itself, in all likelihood, some group will have ideologically convinced itself that it should do so for some incredibly noble reasons.
- zamalek 9y ago
  > some group will have ideologically convinced itself that it should do so for some incredibly noble reasons. "Climate change is a natural process and we shouldn't interfere with it."
- jrs95 9y ago
  >If humankind ever destroys itself, in all likelihood, some group will have ideologically convinced itself that it should do so for some incredibly noble reasons. You mean like the people commenting here advocating replacing us with AI?
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-emotion-goes-viral-fastest-180950182/ http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-emotion-go... Pretty much anyone on the internet that gets traction is using outrage to spread their message. Since the emotions that cause viral spread on the internet are only outrage, lust, and awe, some huge whopping fraction of all communications on the internet through social media results in positions so extreme, someone eventually basically advocates destroying the human race or some large swathe of it. It's like Godwin's Law. It's most certainly related to that, come to think of it. Douglas Adams was a prophet! http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6458-meanwhile-the-poor-babel-fish-by-effectively-removing-all-barriers http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6458-meanwhile-the-poor-babe...
drewrv 9y ago
I've been thinking of this as a sci-fi concept recently. On Star Trek all the other races have this singular defining trait, vulcans are logical, klingons are warriors, ferengi are greedy. The defining trait of humans is going against their natural impulses. We evolved from violent savage apes yet strive toward peace. Some choose veganism. Others choose celibacy.
- Fricken 9y ago
  Wasn't Captain Kirk the one always going with his gut instinct? The Vulcans were once an extremely emotional and violent race. Their logical traits are the result of generations of disciplined mastery over their natural impulses.
  - qbrass 9y ago
    McCoy was usually the one making the emotional appeal to the captain for the audience's sake. And humans in general were the emotional ones. However, Kirk was supposed to be the moderate one that didn't give-way to pure logic or emotion and find the best solution somewhere in between. Which was the moral of the story of the week.
  - drewrv 9y ago
    I suppose so, I was always more of a TNG nerd.
avaer 9y ago
I prefer to think of it as: one person's destructive biological impulse is another person's effective business idea. If you recognize it you can vaccinate yourself.
dahart 9y ago
That is a truly deep thought, I love it. I also think it's begging for clarity - it's right and wrong at the same time depending on what we're talking about. Whether our "natural" impulses are destructive, they were evolutionary advantages when it comes to pure survival for long periods of history. Craving sugar was a good thing until the last century. The sexual impulses that lead to higher mating success are also evolutionary advantages despite their being destructive and socially unacceptable. There are known parallels in humans to what this article is talking about. The book "Sperm Wars" mentions many of them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_Wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_Wars The authors go to great lengths to denounce violent behavior, but nonetheless discuss the evolutionary advantages of some behaviors that we do not allow socially.
ams6110 9y ago
Look forward to the day? Religion (for whatever its faults) figured this out a long time ago. Man (by which I mean humans) is inherently sinful, though we are intelligent enough to recognize it and be responsible for it. It takes work, guidance, and discipline to live a righteous life.
lj3 9y ago
> I look forward to the day a majority of people realize that our biology is, to a large extent, something to be overcome. I look forward to the day a majority of people realize that our biology is something that cannot be overcome. You work with mother nature or you get crushed by her. Those are the only choices available to us.
- antisthenes 9y ago
  Even if you override the natural instincts, you have to replace them with some other form of behavior. There is no ideal set of behaviors, unless you strip all humanity from a species. Once you overcome the 'hurdle' of 'undesirable' behaviors, you just adopt a new set of behaviors, which could be, in the long run, just as detrimental as the ones we have now. I think Brave New World describes this quite well. The world where everyone is happy isn't necessarily the one that wouldn't be shocking to us in its behavioral patterns.

sawyer 9y ago

The article ends with: "It doesn’t mean it has an evolutionary basis." If not evolution, then what? Doesn't all behavior have an evolutionary basis?

acchow 9y ago
No. There is a technical term for this - can someone help me out? I can't remember it....
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Philanthropy? Selflessness? Sacrifice?
- artgon 9y ago
  Yes. They're called non-adaptive traits or spandrels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandrel_(biology)

esaym 9y ago

Don't really see anything new here. Grew up on a farm. Cats beat the crap out of each other in mating season. Horses as well. The stud will typically bite the crap out of her or run her through a fence repeatedly

dildo_fingers 9y ago

Fuck Newsweek

respiratory 9y ago

My long-term lover enjoys being slapped, choked, and generally degraded during sex. Doing these actions increases the amount of mating we indulge in. Through this effect, I too find myself conditioned to sexual arousal in these circumstances, noticeably increasing the extent of my tumescence. There are plenty of other females out there who desire similar treatment. Perhaps humans are not so different to baboons in this regard?

antisthenes 9y ago
More than 50% of women have a rape fantasy[1], so...probably? source: [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19085605 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19085605