8 ms·

How to get hired

100 points by mahipal 16y ago

frossie 16y ago
Good grief. I guarantee you that if anybody contacted me every week asking if I have an unadvertised job for them, I'd file them in the "stalker" folder.
- gvb 16y ago
  Reread the paragraph before the one you reference: "Vary your message. Sometimes ask advice. Sometimes give advice. But always make it clear how much you want to work there." Reread two paragraphs previous to that: "Ideally, you could be more specific, telling them ways you could improve one of their projects, services, or products." In other words, don't be a stalker, but do be persistent, helpful, and interesting.
  - frossie 16y ago
    Reread the paragraph before the one you reference: "Vary your message" Don't matter. Still annoying if you are doing it every week. In other words, don't be a stalker, but do be persistent, helpful, and interesting. Most people overrate their ability to be interesting or helpful, and "persistent" is just too annoying. And cold-calling multiple times is so beyond rude, I can't even begin to grasp why anyone would advise it. The idea that I would not have an open job call just because some dude has been pestering us every week for the last year... I find this baffling. Perhaps things are different in SV. Edit: I just remembered where I'd found this better phrased: http://www.cluewagon.com/2009/09/calling-to-follow-up-hand-me-a-fork-2/ http://www.cluewagon.com/2009/09/calling-to-follow-up-hand-m... Quote: "It’s not about being the most attention-seeking candidate. It’s about being the most qualified candidate. If it’s not, you’re applying to the wrong company."
    - billswift 16y ago
      Even better quote: dude, what did you expect? You specifically target companies who respond to the flashy one, not the talented one. If you try to side-step meritocracies, you can’t complain when you end up working someplace with no meritocracy.
- sync 16y ago
  You have a "stalker" folder?
  - wildmXranat 16y ago
    I know, eh. Tagging is clearly the way to go.
  - amh 16y ago
    My current employer once interviewed someone who brought in public photos of the departmental director and printed out webpages relating to stuff he did at previous jobs, I guess to prove that she was interested in what we do. She also made weird comments about visible personal possessions lying around in cubicles. Super creepy. She didn't get the job.
dcurtis 16y ago
Warning: this only works if you are genuinely good at what you do.
- chime 16y ago
  Also, it only applies if you really really want to work for someone else. Most people just want to make 60-120k working 40-hour weeks. If you just want to get a job that has a high pay to work ratio, you should beef up your resume/credentials instead. If you really really want to work hard so you can succeed some day in the future, a startup might be your best bet.
- btmorex 16y ago
  Maybe. It seems to be a "how to get hired" article that only takes into account the company's interests though. Specifically, focusing all your effort on one company is ridiculous. If you're genuinely good at what you do, you should try hard to get at least two offers. Not so that you can ping pong back and forth between companies and try to eek out the most money possible, rather just hinting to companies that other companies are interested in you is usually good enough to get a decent offer without any hassle.
- uast23 16y ago
  If someone is really good at what he does, he would not waste his time doing whatever the author suggests
- motters 16y ago
  I'd agree. If you've already built up a high reputation in some area and are a well recognised person in that particular field then possibly the pestering strategy might work - especially if you can provide genuinely relevant hints and tips. However, I think in the large majority of cases the pestering strategy isn't going to work, because cold calling multiple times soon beings to appear rude.
qq66 16y ago
The picture that accompanies the article is ridiculously cute (though totally irrelevant) :)
euroclydon 16y ago
What is so good about this? It's straight out of the getting hired 101 stuff that most folks heard in college. What about spending your time becoming someone worth hiring? Then moving to an area where they are hiring folks who do what you do? I could see the advice in the article working for a non-technical person, like a sales guy, but who is that passionate about working? "My dream is to come into your office five days a week and sit at one of your desks and work!" This is just more propaganda from hiring managers with a financial stake in the hire. How are you going to negotiate salary after begging for a job for three months? My advice: do what you love doing, whether in your current company, or in your copious unemployed time, then present yourself as someone who is very good at X; don't beg.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- mattm 16y ago
  > This is just more propaganda from hiring managers with a financial stake in the hire. How are you going to negotiate salary after begging for a job for three months? Agree. Derek Sivers normally has good advice but this is biased. This benefits the advisor more than the advisee.
- oz 16y ago
  "How are you going to negotiate salary after begging for a job for three months?" That was my problem with the article as well. It puts you in a position of weakness/subservience. Most people will take advantage. My resume is a PDF document, black background with orange borders and text. The pages advance like PowerPoint slides. The headings are Who I am, What I know, What I've done. The whole thing reads like a story. In the very first section, Who I am, I tell them that I'm evolution's gift to humanity. I carry that same playful, yet knowledgeable attitude into the interview. I sent it out once last year, and I'm at that job typing this now. My boss is quite a character, so he likes that sort of thing. I'll be sending it out to some companies this week, and see what happens.
  - WilliamLP 16y ago
antidaily 16y ago
I'd hire someone who took this approach (assuming he/she was qualified). They're motivated and enthusiastic. Which can be hard to find.
- Tichy 16y ago
  Or maybe they are just really good liars.
Tichy 16y ago
The dog picture spoils it all, or was that the point? Basically, prove you are a good dog, and you'll be hired?
- billswift 16y ago
  I'm not sure because the picture is a bit blurry, but whoever owns that dog should consider reducing the amount he feeds it. It looks rather over-weight.
- Wilfred 16y ago
  I assumed it was a tenacity thing -- note the dog has something in its teeth and is presumably very reluctant to let go.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    Would perhaps have worked better for displaying tenaciousness if the something wasn't a pink teddy bear :-)
uast23 16y ago
I have never read a "how to get hired" book ever; and if those books sound like this, I am so thankful that I did not read it during my college. What is the crux of whole write-up? Is it trying to say that anybody who keeps stalking a company receptionist/HR gets a job!!! This can give a serious misconceptions to people who are looking for a job.
ulrich 16y ago
You will get hired with this approach, yes. But it is the best way to destroy your own value. If someone is constantly asking for a job at this special company, he is also willing to make a lot of compromises for it. As the author stated, this is an "employer's point of view".
ibejoeb 16y ago
Derek's a bright guy, and I respect him. He doesn't even know me. To anyone consider trying this: don't let this advice land you a restraining order. I just thought I'd share an anecdote: I had a applicant do this, including the "in-person" bit. The poor girl in HR thought she had a stalker, and I didn't appreciate the incessant badgering. Don't call from different numbers, use fake names, and state different agendas to talk to people.
- vsync 16y ago
  > The poor girl in HR thought she had a stalker Sounds like she's got a bit of an ego...
paulreiners 16y ago
To tell you the truth, I'd feel like a nut case saying something like "You are my favorite company. It's my dream to work for you. If you have any aspect that could use a little help, let me do it, and I promise you it'll thrive. I'm that passionate about this."
motters 16y ago
I'm not so certain that this is really good advice in the modern job market. Pestering people continually may not be a great strategy. If I was the company guy at the end of the phone taking very similar "I want a job" calls from the same person all the time I'd be inclined to dismiss them as a loony, even if their qualifications looked good on paper (or in an email). In the modern era I'm not sure that it's necessarily a good idea to pin all your hopes and job finding efforts onto a single company. Probably it's wiser to consider a range of companies, and not appear to be suffering from OCD even if you really do love the companies you're dealing with. Also, from the early part of my own career I know that people who are genuinely eager and somewhat naive can also get horribly exploited, so if pestering succeeds then be careful that you're not just being used like a throwaway consumable.
- mattm 16y ago
  In my experience, it is actually better to be nonchalant about wanting to work for a particular company. People respond better to you if they know you're interested yet have other options.
mcknz 16y ago
I have won bullfights in San Juan, cliff-diving competitions in Sri Lanka, and I have earned trust in the Kremlin. I have played Hamlet, I have performed open-heart surgery, and I have spoken to the Messiah. But, I have never gone to college.
MicahWedemeyer 16y ago
The approach described is ridiculous, and I'm glad to see that so many others here on HN see it the same.
zacharyz 16y ago
Or you can try another approach: demonstrate value to the company by finding solutions to problems they didn't realize they had in the first place. If you are a designer - offer a mock up with descriptions of how your design is an improvement. If you are a programmer - provide bug fixes or build a feature that the company's product lacks. Provide value and make yourself indispensable so that they will want to hire you before you even ask. Don't just approach the company asking "what can I do for you?" instead approach them with "I respect your company, here are some solutions that I think will benefit you. Let me know if there are any other ways that I can help."
j_baker 16y ago
Somewhat Off-topic: Assuming that I disagree with his advice to only go for one company, is it reasonable to politely decline to answer when they ask what other companies I'm applying with? I always feel a little bit uncomfortable answering that question, and I can't necessarily express why.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Counter with: what other people are you hirering?
todayiamme 16y ago
Perhaps he is just trying to say something else? Albeit in a really bad way. In some ways the post is just too vague, but I see it this way; constantly remind that organization that you are of some value, which isn't such bad advice at the end of the day. I recently read Dale Carengie's book. Although, I started reading it with a WTF-Is-This? point of view, but I've fallen in love with his idea. I think that he has an important point. People, like everyone else, that make up those companies are only interested in themselves, in order to make them follow your path you have to be interested in the. Instead of just kissing someone's ass this means actually making contribution to that person be it in their work, or personal lives. Most of us would walk away from that article with an idea of counterfeit charisma, but the real deal is something quite different. Something that all of us sense, but cannot define. Take a look at this article he linked to (http://sivers.org/tom-williams http://sivers.org/tom-williams), which simply made my night. That person had the drive and the talent to do something, but he short circuited a process that would take years upon years to achieve, and I think that there is a lesson in there for all of us to learn.
- billswift 16y ago
  Which Carnegie book? I've read 2 of his; I liked How to Stop Worrying and Start Living better than the more widely known How to Win Friends and Influence People, but they are both somewhat useful.
  - todayiamme 16y ago
    I read How to Win Friends and Influence People.
jseliger 16y ago
This kind of thing makes me crazy: "It doesn't matter if they're not hiring." If it's a small company... there's a good chance they're really not hiring. My family runs a consulting business, and our website says we're not hiring: http://seliger.com/faq.html#anchor6 http://seliger.com/faq.html#anchor6 . But we get people who send us e-mails (hire me!), to which we reply, "we're not hiring," and then call us and say the same thing, which gets a very fast hang up. When people do this, they're wasting their time and our time. But they do it anyway. It doesn't matter how smart you are: we're still not hiring, even if you do this: " Learn all about them. Read every page of their website. Become a customer. Read every article about them. Study and memorize this info."
zackattack 16y ago
I know a guy who did this and ended up getting hired at the NHL. After 6 months of pestering, they started him as an intern; he's now an organization man slowly climbing the corporate ladder.
ufomuffin 16y ago
For some types of jobs this would work, people looking for the all the time motivated and enthusiastic, but it looks more like "how to be annoying" manual.
Arun2009 16y ago
Alternatively, you could work HARD at being bloody good at what you do.

100 points by mahipal 16y ago

Good grief. I guarantee you that if anybody contacted me every week asking if I have an unadvertised job for them, I'd file them in the "stalker" folder.

gvb 16y ago
Reread the paragraph before the one you reference: "Vary your message. Sometimes ask advice. Sometimes give advice. But always make it clear how much you want to work there." Reread two paragraphs previous to that: "Ideally, you could be more specific, telling them ways you could improve one of their projects, services, or products." In other words, don't be a stalker, but do be persistent, helpful, and interesting.
- frossie 16y ago
  Reread the paragraph before the one you reference: "Vary your message" Don't matter. Still annoying if you are doing it every week. In other words, don't be a stalker, but do be persistent, helpful, and interesting. Most people overrate their ability to be interesting or helpful, and "persistent" is just too annoying. And cold-calling multiple times is so beyond rude, I can't even begin to grasp why anyone would advise it. The idea that I would not have an open job call just because some dude has been pestering us every week for the last year... I find this baffling. Perhaps things are different in SV. Edit: I just remembered where I'd found this better phrased: http://www.cluewagon.com/2009/09/calling-to-follow-up-hand-me-a-fork-2/ http://www.cluewagon.com/2009/09/calling-to-follow-up-hand-m... Quote: "It’s not about being the most attention-seeking candidate. It’s about being the most qualified candidate. If it’s not, you’re applying to the wrong company."
  - billswift 16y ago
    Even better quote: dude, what did you expect? You specifically target companies who respond to the flashy one, not the talented one. If you try to side-step meritocracies, you can’t complain when you end up working someplace with no meritocracy.
sync 16y ago
You have a "stalker" folder?
- wildmXranat 16y ago
  I know, eh. Tagging is clearly the way to go.
- amh 16y ago
  My current employer once interviewed someone who brought in public photos of the departmental director and printed out webpages relating to stuff he did at previous jobs, I guess to prove that she was interested in what we do. She also made weird comments about visible personal possessions lying around in cubicles. Super creepy. She didn't get the job.

dcurtis 16y ago

Warning: this only works if you are genuinely good at what you do.

chime 16y ago
Also, it only applies if you really really want to work for someone else. Most people just want to make 60-120k working 40-hour weeks. If you just want to get a job that has a high pay to work ratio, you should beef up your resume/credentials instead. If you really really want to work hard so you can succeed some day in the future, a startup might be your best bet.
btmorex 16y ago
Maybe. It seems to be a "how to get hired" article that only takes into account the company's interests though. Specifically, focusing all your effort on one company is ridiculous. If you're genuinely good at what you do, you should try hard to get at least two offers. Not so that you can ping pong back and forth between companies and try to eek out the most money possible, rather just hinting to companies that other companies are interested in you is usually good enough to get a decent offer without any hassle.
uast23 16y ago
If someone is really good at what he does, he would not waste his time doing whatever the author suggests
motters 16y ago
I'd agree. If you've already built up a high reputation in some area and are a well recognised person in that particular field then possibly the pestering strategy might work - especially if you can provide genuinely relevant hints and tips. However, I think in the large majority of cases the pestering strategy isn't going to work, because cold calling multiple times soon beings to appear rude.

qq66 16y ago

The picture that accompanies the article is ridiculously cute (though totally irrelevant) :)

euroclydon 16y ago

What is so good about this? It's straight out of the getting hired 101 stuff that most folks heard in college. What about spending your time becoming someone worth hiring? Then moving to an area where they are hiring folks who do what you do? I could see the advice in the article working for a non-technical person, like a sales guy, but who is that passionate about working? "My dream is to come into your office five days a week and sit at one of your desks and work!" This is just more propaganda from hiring managers with a financial stake in the hire. How are you going to negotiate salary after begging for a job for three months? My advice: do what you love doing, whether in your current company, or in your copious unemployed time, then present yourself as someone who is very good at X; don't beg.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
mattm 16y ago
> This is just more propaganda from hiring managers with a financial stake in the hire. How are you going to negotiate salary after begging for a job for three months? Agree. Derek Sivers normally has good advice but this is biased. This benefits the advisor more than the advisee.
oz 16y ago
"How are you going to negotiate salary after begging for a job for three months?" That was my problem with the article as well. It puts you in a position of weakness/subservience. Most people will take advantage. My resume is a PDF document, black background with orange borders and text. The pages advance like PowerPoint slides. The headings are Who I am, What I know, What I've done. The whole thing reads like a story. In the very first section, Who I am, I tell them that I'm evolution's gift to humanity. I carry that same playful, yet knowledgeable attitude into the interview. I sent it out once last year, and I'm at that job typing this now. My boss is quite a character, so he likes that sort of thing. I'll be sending it out to some companies this week, and see what happens.
- WilliamLP 16y ago

antidaily 16y ago

I'd hire someone who took this approach (assuming he/she was qualified). They're motivated and enthusiastic. Which can be hard to find.

Tichy 16y ago
Or maybe they are just really good liars.

Tichy 16y ago

The dog picture spoils it all, or was that the point? Basically, prove you are a good dog, and you'll be hired?

billswift 16y ago
I'm not sure because the picture is a bit blurry, but whoever owns that dog should consider reducing the amount he feeds it. It looks rather over-weight.
Wilfred 16y ago
I assumed it was a tenacity thing -- note the dog has something in its teeth and is presumably very reluctant to let go.
- Tichy 16y ago
  Would perhaps have worked better for displaying tenaciousness if the something wasn't a pink teddy bear :-)

uast23 16y ago

I have never read a "how to get hired" book ever; and if those books sound like this, I am so thankful that I did not read it during my college. What is the crux of whole write-up? Is it trying to say that anybody who keeps stalking a company receptionist/HR gets a job!!! This can give a serious misconceptions to people who are looking for a job.

ulrich 16y ago

You will get hired with this approach, yes. But it is the best way to destroy your own value. If someone is constantly asking for a job at this special company, he is also willing to make a lot of compromises for it. As the author stated, this is an "employer's point of view".

ibejoeb 16y ago

Derek's a bright guy, and I respect him. He doesn't even know me. To anyone consider trying this: don't let this advice land you a restraining order. I just thought I'd share an anecdote: I had a applicant do this, including the "in-person" bit. The poor girl in HR thought she had a stalker, and I didn't appreciate the incessant badgering. Don't call from different numbers, use fake names, and state different agendas to talk to people.

vsync 16y ago
> The poor girl in HR thought she had a stalker Sounds like she's got a bit of an ego...

paulreiners 16y ago

To tell you the truth, I'd feel like a nut case saying something like "You are my favorite company. It's my dream to work for you. If you have any aspect that could use a little help, let me do it, and I promise you it'll thrive. I'm that passionate about this."

motters 16y ago

I'm not so certain that this is really good advice in the modern job market. Pestering people continually may not be a great strategy. If I was the company guy at the end of the phone taking very similar "I want a job" calls from the same person all the time I'd be inclined to dismiss them as a loony, even if their qualifications looked good on paper (or in an email). In the modern era I'm not sure that it's necessarily a good idea to pin all your hopes and job finding efforts onto a single company. Probably it's wiser to consider a range of companies, and not appear to be suffering from OCD even if you really do love the companies you're dealing with. Also, from the early part of my own career I know that people who are genuinely eager and somewhat naive can also get horribly exploited, so if pestering succeeds then be careful that you're not just being used like a throwaway consumable.

mattm 16y ago
In my experience, it is actually better to be nonchalant about wanting to work for a particular company. People respond better to you if they know you're interested yet have other options.

mcknz 16y ago

I have won bullfights in San Juan, cliff-diving competitions in Sri Lanka, and I have earned trust in the Kremlin. I have played Hamlet, I have performed open-heart surgery, and I have spoken to the Messiah. But, I have never gone to college.

MicahWedemeyer 16y ago

The approach described is ridiculous, and I'm glad to see that so many others here on HN see it the same.

zacharyz 16y ago

Or you can try another approach: demonstrate value to the company by finding solutions to problems they didn't realize they had in the first place. If you are a designer - offer a mock up with descriptions of how your design is an improvement. If you are a programmer - provide bug fixes or build a feature that the company's product lacks. Provide value and make yourself indispensable so that they will want to hire you before you even ask. Don't just approach the company asking "what can I do for you?" instead approach them with "I respect your company, here are some solutions that I think will benefit you. Let me know if there are any other ways that I can help."

j_baker 16y ago

Somewhat Off-topic: Assuming that I disagree with his advice to only go for one company, is it reasonable to politely decline to answer when they ask what other companies I'm applying with? I always feel a little bit uncomfortable answering that question, and I can't necessarily express why.

tomjen3 16y ago
Counter with: what other people are you hirering?

todayiamme 16y ago

Perhaps he is just trying to say something else? Albeit in a really bad way. In some ways the post is just too vague, but I see it this way; constantly remind that organization that you are of some value, which isn't such bad advice at the end of the day. I recently read Dale Carengie's book. Although, I started reading it with a WTF-Is-This? point of view, but I've fallen in love with his idea. I think that he has an important point. People, like everyone else, that make up those companies are only interested in themselves, in order to make them follow your path you have to be interested in the. Instead of just kissing someone's ass this means actually making contribution to that person be it in their work, or personal lives. Most of us would walk away from that article with an idea of counterfeit charisma, but the real deal is something quite different. Something that all of us sense, but cannot define. Take a look at this article he linked to (http://sivers.org/tom-williams http://sivers.org/tom-williams), which simply made my night. That person had the drive and the talent to do something, but he short circuited a process that would take years upon years to achieve, and I think that there is a lesson in there for all of us to learn.

billswift 16y ago
Which Carnegie book? I've read 2 of his; I liked How to Stop Worrying and Start Living better than the more widely known How to Win Friends and Influence People, but they are both somewhat useful.
- todayiamme 16y ago
  I read How to Win Friends and Influence People.

jseliger 16y ago

This kind of thing makes me crazy: "It doesn't matter if they're not hiring." If it's a small company... there's a good chance they're really not hiring. My family runs a consulting business, and our website says we're not hiring: http://seliger.com/faq.html#anchor6 http://seliger.com/faq.html#anchor6 . But we get people who send us e-mails (hire me!), to which we reply, "we're not hiring," and then call us and say the same thing, which gets a very fast hang up. When people do this, they're wasting their time and our time. But they do it anyway. It doesn't matter how smart you are: we're still not hiring, even if you do this: " Learn all about them. Read every page of their website. Become a customer. Read every article about them. Study and memorize this info."

zackattack 16y ago

I know a guy who did this and ended up getting hired at the NHL. After 6 months of pestering, they started him as an intern; he's now an organization man slowly climbing the corporate ladder.

ufomuffin 16y ago

For some types of jobs this would work, people looking for the all the time motivated and enthusiastic, but it looks more like "how to be annoying" manual.

Arun2009 16y ago

Alternatively, you could work HARD at being bloody good at what you do.