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Anecdote from personal life: I was meeting potential roommates when I met a girl who I found very attractive. We had a great conversation, but for other reason

by pm90 9y ago

Anecdote from personal life: I was meeting potential roommates when I met a girl who I found very attractive. We had a great conversation, but for other reasons (location, timing of leases) it didn't work out. Later, after finding a roommate and moving in, I checked in with her to see if she would like to go out on a date. She replied yes, and we went out and had a great time. Despite not being coworkers, I was mindful of the fact that we had initially met for the purpose of discussing being roommates which I consider a platonic relationship. Just like what the OP says, when I asked her later, she appreciated the fact that I didn't ask her out right away, but waited until later to do so. Its not rocket science to get this right. Its pretty much common sense.

gpawl 9y ago
It's neither rocket science not common sense, or it is common sense, but common isn't innate: it's cultural expectations that need to be taught and reminded, so everyone can be their best self.
joshAg 9y ago
I disagree that it's common sense, especially in the tech industry. I shared it because of recent high-profiles cases about this issue. Like, we assume the absolute best of Dave McClure, he did not know better and made literally this exact mistake that the article discusses about the boundary between professional and personal lives. If we're still assuming the best, then part of the way to fix this issue is to explain to the people who know don't know better what the boundaries actually are and why. This is the same reason why it's important to teach people about affirmative consent. On the other hand, if we stop assuming the best, then we start getting into "they're violating people's boundaries on purpose, not by accident, so teaching them boundaries will not help, they cannot be helped" territory.
- pm90 9y ago
  I agree with your point that it may not be common sense. However, please don't use Dave McClure as an example of someone "who didn't know better". He knew exactly what he was doing and apologized only when his actions were being made public by multiple women. Perfect hypothetical example of someone "who doesn't know better" would have been if the OP of the article had ignored the Investor/Founder boundary and asked her out on a date.
  - joshAg 9y ago
    I agree that he's probably lying about not knowing better. That's why I said 'if we assume the best'. The best case scenario for Dave McClure is that he was painfully ignorant about basic human interaction, because the other option is that he's a predator. But even if we do assume that he's a predator, the fact that he (and many others who have used similar excuses) thinks that saying he didn't know any better is a valid excuse means that we need to work on emphasizing that that sort of thing is absolutely unacceptable, so that it stops becoming an excuse predators can use.
- twobyfour 9y ago
  Physical intimidation after not accepting "no" for an answer goes far beyond "did not know better".

by pm90 9y ago

gpawl 9y ago

It's neither rocket science not common sense, or it is common sense, but common isn't innate: it's cultural expectations that need to be taught and reminded, so everyone can be their best self.

joshAg 9y ago

I disagree that it's common sense, especially in the tech industry. I shared it because of recent high-profiles cases about this issue. Like, we assume the absolute best of Dave McClure, he did not know better and made literally this exact mistake that the article discusses about the boundary between professional and personal lives. If we're still assuming the best, then part of the way to fix this issue is to explain to the people who know don't know better what the boundaries actually are and why. This is the same reason why it's important to teach people about affirmative consent. On the other hand, if we stop assuming the best, then we start getting into "they're violating people's boundaries on purpose, not by accident, so teaching them boundaries will not help, they cannot be helped" territory.

pm90 9y ago
I agree with your point that it may not be common sense. However, please don't use Dave McClure as an example of someone "who didn't know better". He knew exactly what he was doing and apologized only when his actions were being made public by multiple women. Perfect hypothetical example of someone "who doesn't know better" would have been if the OP of the article had ignored the Investor/Founder boundary and asked her out on a date.
- joshAg 9y ago
  I agree that he's probably lying about not knowing better. That's why I said 'if we assume the best'. The best case scenario for Dave McClure is that he was painfully ignorant about basic human interaction, because the other option is that he's a predator. But even if we do assume that he's a predator, the fact that he (and many others who have used similar excuses) thinks that saying he didn't know any better is a valid excuse means that we need to work on emphasizing that that sort of thing is absolutely unacceptable, so that it stops becoming an excuse predators can use.
twobyfour 9y ago
Physical intimidation after not accepting "no" for an answer goes far beyond "did not know better".