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It's kind of crazy to me that it's not blindingly obvious and needs to be said like it's a hidden wisdom. Isn't it just being a professional? Why is that diffi

It's kind of crazy to me that it's not blindingly obvious and needs to be said like it's a hidden wisdom. Isn't it just being a professional? Why is that difficult for some people?

joshAg 9y ago
Because there's a large swath of people in the technology industry who consider not understanding social graces well to be a virtue. Most of the time that just comes out as being awkward in a stereotypically nerdy way, but it also manifests as being unable to see what is so wrong with hitting on someone in a business setting or being unable to see why someone might be so upset about it.
- pm90 9y ago
  Ah, you know what, I had been thinking about this for a while and I think your comment nails it. Most of my programmer friends seem to have some degree of social awkwardness (including myself, although I did recognize it as a liability and chose to change it) and just like you said, its usually just harmless nerdy behavior. But when these same people come across power in any form, that same social awkwardness can cause serious problems.
  - joshAg 9y ago
    You don't even need to be in power for this issue to cause problems. If someone in power does something bad, if the lack of social skills prevents you from realizing what they did was bad, then you're essentially going to let it continue by not speaking out about it and you're going to reinforce that whatever that thing was was actually ok. And this is all done without you even realizing what you are doing, because you don't have the social skills realize that you are doing it at all.
Mz 9y ago
I was sexually abused as a child and had very sexualized behavior and poor boundaries when I was in my teens and twenties. In my twenties, I might have been one of the people going "Gosh, I don't see why this is a problem." But I knew I had serious personal issues and I got married at 19 and did the full time homemaker thing and got therapy. I actively chose to live a very private life and get my crap sorted. I was much clearer about such things by the time I got a corporate job during my divorce. I was able to very quietly handle problems with men at my corporate job. We need to say things like this and keep saying it so that the people who didn't get the memo before they started their careers have some hope of getting the memo before it is another scandal in the headlines. It isn't constructive to just let people mess up that bad and then hang them high while making zero effort to clue them before it goes that far. Some people will still take it too far. We can't stop all of it. But only giving attention to the matter when things go wrong and then having a public shit show is actively harmful to the goal of opening doors for women. For one thing, it creates the impression that there are no good guys, that sexual predators are the norm and it creates a very threatening atmosphere. To some degree, it does so unnecessarily. Yes, I deal routinely with the issue that a lot of men are only talking to me because they are hoping for a hook up and that is problematic. But, for me, a better solution is to know there are men I can connect with professionally than to get the message that "ALL businessmen are wolves in sheep's clothing and you just have to expect to be groped and to put up with lewd remarks. That's just par for the course." It has been hard for me to make those connections, and I can't help but wonder if part of the problem is that having heard so much negativity, I was being suspicious at times when it wasn't warranted and thereby cutting my own throat simply because all that I was hearing was "ALL men are just like that." And that isn't a problem that gets solved by the good guys remaining silent and the ugly incidents getting all the press. It is a problem that gets solved by having positive examples to follow so I can more effectively recognize when I need to worry and when I don't. Being on guard all the time is not a good way to win friends and influence people. It is counterproductive if you are trying to establish business connections.
vacri 9y ago
The article is talking about a situation with a clear power imbalance. The concept of 'at work' is much broader than this. Does 'at work' mean 'in the same office'? 'in the same department'? 'in the same building'? 'in the same role'? Should a janitor and a gardener be verboten from dating? A backend developer and a legal eagle? A graphic designer and a receptionist? I hope you don't live in a town where there's just one big employer. A moment's thought makes is less 'blindingly obvious'.

It's kind of crazy to me that it's not blindingly obvious and needs to be said like it's a hidden wisdom. Isn't it just being a professional? Why is that difficult for some people?

joshAg 9y ago

Because there's a large swath of people in the technology industry who consider not understanding social graces well to be a virtue. Most of the time that just comes out as being awkward in a stereotypically nerdy way, but it also manifests as being unable to see what is so wrong with hitting on someone in a business setting or being unable to see why someone might be so upset about it.

pm90 9y ago
Ah, you know what, I had been thinking about this for a while and I think your comment nails it. Most of my programmer friends seem to have some degree of social awkwardness (including myself, although I did recognize it as a liability and chose to change it) and just like you said, its usually just harmless nerdy behavior. But when these same people come across power in any form, that same social awkwardness can cause serious problems.
- joshAg 9y ago
  You don't even need to be in power for this issue to cause problems. If someone in power does something bad, if the lack of social skills prevents you from realizing what they did was bad, then you're essentially going to let it continue by not speaking out about it and you're going to reinforce that whatever that thing was was actually ok. And this is all done without you even realizing what you are doing, because you don't have the social skills realize that you are doing it at all.

Mz 9y ago

I was sexually abused as a child and had very sexualized behavior and poor boundaries when I was in my teens and twenties. In my twenties, I might have been one of the people going "Gosh, I don't see why this is a problem." But I knew I had serious personal issues and I got married at 19 and did the full time homemaker thing and got therapy. I actively chose to live a very private life and get my crap sorted. I was much clearer about such things by the time I got a corporate job during my divorce. I was able to very quietly handle problems with men at my corporate job. We need to say things like this and keep saying it so that the people who didn't get the memo before they started their careers have some hope of getting the memo before it is another scandal in the headlines. It isn't constructive to just let people mess up that bad and then hang them high while making zero effort to clue them before it goes that far. Some people will still take it too far. We can't stop all of it. But only giving attention to the matter when things go wrong and then having a public shit show is actively harmful to the goal of opening doors for women. For one thing, it creates the impression that there are no good guys, that sexual predators are the norm and it creates a very threatening atmosphere. To some degree, it does so unnecessarily. Yes, I deal routinely with the issue that a lot of men are only talking to me because they are hoping for a hook up and that is problematic. But, for me, a better solution is to know there are men I can connect with professionally than to get the message that "ALL businessmen are wolves in sheep's clothing and you just have to expect to be groped and to put up with lewd remarks. That's just par for the course." It has been hard for me to make those connections, and I can't help but wonder if part of the problem is that having heard so much negativity, I was being suspicious at times when it wasn't warranted and thereby cutting my own throat simply because all that I was hearing was "ALL men are just like that." And that isn't a problem that gets solved by the good guys remaining silent and the ugly incidents getting all the press. It is a problem that gets solved by having positive examples to follow so I can more effectively recognize when I need to worry and when I don't. Being on guard all the time is not a good way to win friends and influence people. It is counterproductive if you are trying to establish business connections.

vacri 9y ago

The article is talking about a situation with a clear power imbalance. The concept of 'at work' is much broader than this. Does 'at work' mean 'in the same office'? 'in the same department'? 'in the same building'? 'in the same role'? Should a janitor and a gardener be verboten from dating? A backend developer and a legal eagle? A graphic designer and a receptionist? I hope you don't live in a town where there's just one big employer. A moment's thought makes is less 'blindingly obvious'.