6 ms·

This could very appropriately generalized to all PhD students, and most undergraduate students as well. Anecdotally, many post-secondary students view diplomas

by narkee 16y ago

This could very appropriately generalized to all PhD students, and most undergraduate students as well. Anecdotally, many post-secondary students view diplomas and degrees as simply documents certifying that they've put in their time, and paid their dues. In a sense, the whole academic infrastructure has been somewhat perverted from pursuit of knowledge to pursuit of dollars/fame/status.

timwiseman 16y ago
I do not think this applies to undergraduates. The current lifetime earning difference between someone with a bachelors and someone with no degree was close to a million dollars last time I checked, that is strong monetary motivation to get the degree. I do not have the figures to compare for someone with a bachelors and someone with a PHD, but anecdotally it seems fairly small. More than that, there are a great many non-research career tracks that are only open to someone with a degree, and a great many others that don't technically require a degree but go much more smoothly. It only makes sense to pursue a PHD if you have both a passion for that field and at least enough money to handle the necessities. For most people, it makes sense to get a bachelors if you are able.
Rod 16y ago
"... and most undergraduate students as well." You are seriously out of touch with reality. Well, if you want to be a programmer, you can be a programmer right after high school, and there's no need to spend $30K per year to learn Java and Turing machines. Maybe you, too, have fallen under the spell of PG almighty and believe that "making something that people want" is sufficient to be a sucessful entrepreneur. After 10 years of trying and failing, you may come to the realization that playing the "all or nothing" game usually results in... nothing. Now you're on your late 20s, your high school friends who had more common sense are getting married and having kids, and you have nothing to show. Since you believe you're better than the ones who chose the easy path, you go "all in", hoping for that ever-elusive IPO that will make you rich enough to stick it to the system. In the process, you will have wasted your life chasing a dream. Programmers tend to think that having coding skills is all that matters to make it big. Problem is, the barrier of entry is very low in programming these days, and if a high school kid can outcompete you, you're probably playing the wrong game. People who live in the real world understand that universities sell credentials, not knowledge. Such people understand also that an undergraduate degree is little more than indoctrination, a process through which obedient employees are created. Most organizations need obedient employees, they don't need "creative" coders. Sorry, you're not a special & unique snowflake, and the world does not owe you a thing. It may suck, but being in denial won't help. An undergraduate degree serves many purposes. For one, it indoctrinates you, which sounds evil, but is a necessary evil. Second, it allows you to find out what you like and what you don't. Third, by doing what you like and meeting like-minded people, you end up realizing who you are, not by introspection (fuck that new age BS), but through action. Fourth, it allows you to network with people from all walks of life and the most various fields. Fifth, it provides the skills necessary to accomplish something. You can stay 4 years at home studying by yourself, but you'll go crazy before you accomplish anything. Being in a structured environment for 4 years is a much gentler way of building a skill set that actually matters... just as long as you stay away from sociology, psychology, "womyn" studies and other such distasteful insanity.
- todayiamme 16y ago
  I'll be applying for college this year. So, I am a would be undergrad and I think you are right in some ways but wrong in others. You are right to say that; >>>An undergraduate degree serves many purposes. For one, it indoctrinates you, which sounds evil, but is a necessary evil. Second, it allows you to find out what you like and what you don't. Third, by doing what you like and meeting like-minded people, you end up realizing who you are, not by introspection (fuck that new age BS), but through ?action. Fourth, it allows you to network with people from all walks of life and the most various fields. Fifth, it provides the skills necessary to accomplish something. You can stay 4 years at home studying by yourself, but you'll go crazy before you accomplish anything. Being in a structured environment for 4 years is a much gentler way of building a skill set that actually matters...<<< Yet, in the longer run why are you doing that? It is corny to say that there is more to life than the pursuit of social prestige/money/luxury, but it's quite true. I think of it this way; when I die I want to die knowing that I have lived life to its fullest potential, and for me that involves creating beautiful things. I might not be a special and unique snowflake, but my integrity is precious to me. If I rush down that path I have no doubt that I will lose myself, and what worth is a life like that? For some people that path matches their core identity, but for me it simply doesn't. I don't know why, but I am just nuts about stuff like that. You see, for me the beauty I see around me and the overwhelming beauty of the things I create is reality. It might starve me to death. Maybe not. I accept the risk as the price I shall pay for my freedom to create. Oh and Sociology, Psychology, and women studies do matter, but the way they are currently taught is nothing but intellectual fraud.
  - rortian 16y ago
    >I am a would be undergrad >Sociology, Psychology, and women studies do matter, but the way they are currently taught is nothing but intellectual fraud. At some places but not in general. If you had started reading when you were two you wouldn't be able to categorically make this statement. Chill out on proclamations about things that you couldn't possibly know.
    - todayiamme 16y ago

by narkee 16y ago

timwiseman 16y ago

I do not think this applies to undergraduates. The current lifetime earning difference between someone with a bachelors and someone with no degree was close to a million dollars last time I checked, that is strong monetary motivation to get the degree. I do not have the figures to compare for someone with a bachelors and someone with a PHD, but anecdotally it seems fairly small. More than that, there are a great many non-research career tracks that are only open to someone with a degree, and a great many others that don't technically require a degree but go much more smoothly. It only makes sense to pursue a PHD if you have both a passion for that field and at least enough money to handle the necessities. For most people, it makes sense to get a bachelors if you are able.

Rod 16y ago

"... and most undergraduate students as well." You are seriously out of touch with reality. Well, if you want to be a programmer, you can be a programmer right after high school, and there's no need to spend $30K per year to learn Java and Turing machines. Maybe you, too, have fallen under the spell of PG almighty and believe that "making something that people want" is sufficient to be a sucessful entrepreneur. After 10 years of trying and failing, you may come to the realization that playing the "all or nothing" game usually results in... nothing. Now you're on your late 20s, your high school friends who had more common sense are getting married and having kids, and you have nothing to show. Since you believe you're better than the ones who chose the easy path, you go "all in", hoping for that ever-elusive IPO that will make you rich enough to stick it to the system. In the process, you will have wasted your life chasing a dream. Programmers tend to think that having coding skills is all that matters to make it big. Problem is, the barrier of entry is very low in programming these days, and if a high school kid can outcompete you, you're probably playing the wrong game. People who live in the real world understand that universities sell credentials, not knowledge. Such people understand also that an undergraduate degree is little more than indoctrination, a process through which obedient employees are created. Most organizations need obedient employees, they don't need "creative" coders. Sorry, you're not a special & unique snowflake, and the world does not owe you a thing. It may suck, but being in denial won't help. An undergraduate degree serves many purposes. For one, it indoctrinates you, which sounds evil, but is a necessary evil. Second, it allows you to find out what you like and what you don't. Third, by doing what you like and meeting like-minded people, you end up realizing who you are, not by introspection (fuck that new age BS), but through action. Fourth, it allows you to network with people from all walks of life and the most various fields. Fifth, it provides the skills necessary to accomplish something. You can stay 4 years at home studying by yourself, but you'll go crazy before you accomplish anything. Being in a structured environment for 4 years is a much gentler way of building a skill set that actually matters... just as long as you stay away from sociology, psychology, "womyn" studies and other such distasteful insanity.

todayiamme 16y ago
I'll be applying for college this year. So, I am a would be undergrad and I think you are right in some ways but wrong in others. You are right to say that; >>>An undergraduate degree serves many purposes. For one, it indoctrinates you, which sounds evil, but is a necessary evil. Second, it allows you to find out what you like and what you don't. Third, by doing what you like and meeting like-minded people, you end up realizing who you are, not by introspection (fuck that new age BS), but through ?action. Fourth, it allows you to network with people from all walks of life and the most various fields. Fifth, it provides the skills necessary to accomplish something. You can stay 4 years at home studying by yourself, but you'll go crazy before you accomplish anything. Being in a structured environment for 4 years is a much gentler way of building a skill set that actually matters...<<< Yet, in the longer run why are you doing that? It is corny to say that there is more to life than the pursuit of social prestige/money/luxury, but it's quite true. I think of it this way; when I die I want to die knowing that I have lived life to its fullest potential, and for me that involves creating beautiful things. I might not be a special and unique snowflake, but my integrity is precious to me. If I rush down that path I have no doubt that I will lose myself, and what worth is a life like that? For some people that path matches their core identity, but for me it simply doesn't. I don't know why, but I am just nuts about stuff like that. You see, for me the beauty I see around me and the overwhelming beauty of the things I create is reality. It might starve me to death. Maybe not. I accept the risk as the price I shall pay for my freedom to create. Oh and Sociology, Psychology, and women studies do matter, but the way they are currently taught is nothing but intellectual fraud.
- rortian 16y ago
  >I am a would be undergrad >Sociology, Psychology, and women studies do matter, but the way they are currently taught is nothing but intellectual fraud. At some places but not in general. If you had started reading when you were two you wouldn't be able to categorically make this statement. Chill out on proclamations about things that you couldn't possibly know.
  - todayiamme 16y ago