12 ms·

Handling attraction in a professional setting

151 points by joshAg 9y ago

mankash666 9y ago
Let me state that I strongly back appropriate behavior between the sexes regardless of the setting. What the author is suggesting is that romance is inappropriate between potential investors and founders, regardless of how objective their roles and interactions are outside the sphere of Romance. I disagree with this zero-sum approach. While it's essential to maintain objectivity, if it takes away the humanity, what exactly is the point of this, or anything
- bookmarkacc 9y ago
  Because you are there to do business. A romantic approach that is not reciprocated ruins the environment and should not be something that women founders have to deal with.
- Mz 9y ago
  He got the girl, and without scandal. In comparison, Dave McClure didn't get the hookup he was looking for with Cheryl Yeoh and also has seriously damaged his own career. This is in no way saying you have to give up your humanity. Not hitting on people you shouldn't be hitting on is not like some kind of vow of celibacy. There is a time and place for trying to pursue romance. On the job with another professional whom you have power over is not it.
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  There are a wide variety of situations-- not just romance-related-- where not only is genuine conflict of interest banned, but even the appearance of conflict of interest is banned, even if all involved can honestly say there is no actual conflict. This is because if there is such an appearance of conflict of interest, it's impossible to fully convince people that nothing is wrong, and that is a toxic dynamic. There's a similar issue at play here.
- chrisbennet 9y ago
  The "rules" against this sort of behavior exist because people can't be trusted to maintain objectivity in these sorts of situations. "Oh but I really like her." is not an excuse to do whatever you want. Lets take a more common and less obvious situation; dating coworkers: If things don't work out, often one of the pair will need to leave their job - probably her. A considerate person would realize that "Would you like to get drinks tonight?" really means "Hey, lets see if we have some chemistry and if it doesn't work out, I'm OK with you losing your job."
  - pertymcpert 9y ago
    Wait, are you saying that dating co-workers is wrong? Seriously?
    - chrisbennet 9y ago
      Yes, dating co-workers is wrong. Yes, seriously. People who just work at the same company, no. Work isn't the same as school. I think males tend to be oblivious to the downsides of asking a scrum-mate out on a date. After all, it's not awkward for them. I mean, who wouldn't be flattered to be asked out by me right! Even if she didn't accept this time, she's really going to enjoy pair programming with me in the future. This is where the concept of consideration comes into play - a considerate person thinks about how their actions will will affect others, in this case the coworker you ask out or the rest of the team.
- RonanTheGrey 9y ago
  While I normally strongly oppose attempts to remove humanity, in this particular case (this guy's story) that is not what I see. For hundreds (thousands?) of years, the separation between the sexes and the expectations placed on their roles were intensely ingrained in human cultures across the globe. In less than 100 years we have upended thousands of years of cultural norms. That's no small thing. One of the implications of this is that we are encountering situations for which we have absolutely no rule book. We just don't know how to respond to them. At all. We are stumbling around in the dark, blindly trying to figure it out, all the while trying to create a future any of us actually want to live in. I know I wouldn't want to live in a world where my female colleagues were continually plagued by the question of their advancement relying on the fallout of a single attempt at a romantic encounter. That is not the future I want to build. We set these boundaries - like the writer of this article - because the long term effect is that we build a world where men and women can work side by side without destroying their relationships. If more men did as he did, we would not be experiencing the hyper-sensitive environment we are seeing now. The long term effect of this behavior matters far more than the short term desire to hook up. As in all things, there is a time and a place. The moment when a woman is attempting to get her business off the ground, and you can help her sink or swim, is not the time or place to be expressing your interest in her. She's got enough to be worrying about without that. Maybe there will be (or won't be) a later, where that moment IS appropriate. That is what happened in this case. It won't always. He included her point of view and her needs and wants in his decision making. That is what he did. That is an incredible sign of respect. That is the future I want. There is no loss of humanity here - in fact exactly the opposite. Our humanity is also seen in the hard choices we make. That's the humanity I want to be part of.
js2 9y ago
be a decent and respectful person That's all there is to it, and I don't know what else to add. Do some folks not learn this, not care, or just don't know what it means? Really, it's just the Golden Rule isn't it?
- joshAg 9y ago
  People have different definitions of what is is to be decent and respectful. And really, we should update the golden rule from "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" to something more like "Do unto others as they would have done unto them," because people can have different preferences.
- ebiester 9y ago
  1. There are multiple cultures, even within predominantly white middle class culture. Each has individual rules. I grew up under one set (observing my parents and their friends, a set of working class individuals) , reached adolescence under another (Evangelical Pentecostal culture), and left that to a third, professional educated rules. (Now, ignore for the moment that I'm gay, which has an entirely set of other groups and expectations.) For Evangelicals, it is acceptable to be friends before dating. In current secular trends in the college educated population, women (generally - there are exceptions) expect a man to be up-front with romantic intentions, unless (as above) there are circumstances preventing that intention. There are boundaries to asking someone out if such changes happen. For example, sometimes it is acceptable-ish to ask someone out when they're exiting (or in) a relationship, and there are times when it's a cause for rejection. Most times, it's cause for rejection, unless it isn't. Can you distill the rules into an easy golden rule pattern? I know I can't.
Mz 9y ago
there is a right way and a wrong way to handle attraction in a professional setting. The right way is to back the fuck off and let people do their work despite any attraction. The wrong way is to blur the line. We need a lot more people saying this sort of thing. I am so glad to see this on the front page.
- joshAg 9y ago
  NGL, i am pleasantly surprised so far with the responses.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  It's kind of crazy to me that it's not blindingly obvious and needs to be said like it's a hidden wisdom. Isn't it just being a professional? Why is that difficult for some people?
  - joshAg 9y ago
    Because there's a large swath of people in the technology industry who consider not understanding social graces well to be a virtue. Most of the time that just comes out as being awkward in a stereotypically nerdy way, but it also manifests as being unable to see what is so wrong with hitting on someone in a business setting or being unable to see why someone might be so upset about it.
    - pm90 9y ago
      Ah, you know what, I had been thinking about this for a while and I think your comment nails it. Most of my programmer friends seem to have some degree of social awkwardness (including myself, although I did recognize it as a liability and chose to change it) and just like you said, its usually just harmless nerdy behavior. But when these same people come across power in any form, that same social awkwardness can cause serious problems.
      - joshAg 9y ago
        You don't even need to be in power for this issue to cause problems. If someone in power does something bad, if the lack of social skills prevents you from realizing what they did was bad, then you're essentially going to let it continue by not speaking out about it and you're going to reinforce that whatever that thing was was actually ok. And this is all done without you even realizing what you are doing, because you don't have the social skills realize that you are doing it at all.
rmason 9y ago
It's important that these stories be told because somehow people need to be led by example this is how you deal with female founders if you're an investor. Eliminate any excuses at all. It's just common sense for a lot of people, but as we've seen recently not all.
- roflc0ptic 9y ago
  I second that. Modeling appropriate, pro social behavior has to be a part of improving bad behavior. Pitchforks are fun, but it's not how the real work gets done.
- qb45 9y ago
  For the record, I would be willing to make bets that this sort of high horse white knight moralizing tone as the OP presented will fall on deaf ears where it matters most but whatever.
maerF0x0 9y ago
This story worked out. I wonder how his tune would have changed if she married someone else in the mean time and he missed his chance with her. Seems to be a bit of a confirmation bias.
- danbolt 9y ago
  Maybe, but I get the sense from his writing that he wouldn't have agonised over losing his chance. He likely would have ended up dating and marrying someone else he got along with.
- Mz 9y ago
  He knows who he is. His choice revealed to both her and him who he is and that he's a decent guy. I'm a woman. Some man revealing to me that my hopes, dreams and future are something he is willing to trample in pursuit of sexual gratification for himself is not endearing. It is the opposite of endearing. It makes it clear to me he is a predator and cannot be trusted. The question that gets answered by your choices is a question of character. Doing the right thing means you may get a shot at it later and she will know she can trust you. Hitting on some woman under circumstances where it is ruinous to her dreams is not a way to establish a loving relationship with anyone.
- pm90 9y ago
  Maybe you subscribe to the "one perfect spouse for me" philosophy? From what I see of his attitude from the article, he probably would find someone similar.
  - maerF0x0 9y ago
    Not so much that as maybe some amount of dashed hopes?
rayiner 9y ago
Relevant article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp.... A study conducted for the New York Times study shows that Americans, especially women, have quite negative views of being alone with members of the opposite sex. Only 29% of women consider having a drink alone with a man who is not their spouse to be appropriate behavior, and only 63% think a one-on-one workplace meeting is appropriate. Some trends are surprising: when it comes to dinner, 60-70% of women 18-29 view it as inappropriate, but only 30% of women 55+. I'm not sure what the takeaway is. To me it seems like the product of a culture that has trouble drawing appropriate boundaries between romantic and other contexts. Perhaps it is an outgrowth of the fact that people are basically institutionalized from ages 13-22. School is all consuming--it's where you "work," where you socialize, where you pursue romantic relationships. When people get out into the "real world," they have little experience with all the myriad difference social contexts of ordinary life, and see the workplace as a similar environment.
- ryandvm 9y ago
  I think you're overthinking the dinner thing. The reality is that two millennials are far more likely to have sex on the brain then two senior citizens.
  - cowpewter 9y ago
    I've read that many senior living communities have huge STD issues, because all the old folks are having fun and not bothering with condoms because they're all past reproductive age.
  - BerislavLopac 9y ago
    You would (will?) be very surprised.
- pm90 9y ago
  > Some trends are surprising: when it comes to dinner, 60-70% of women 18-29 view it as inappropriate, but only 30% of women 55+. This might just very well be because in the former age bracket, the women are still very young and are not quite experienced in how to handle and deflect unwanted male attention. Older women on the other hand, have been through a lifetime of this and thus may be a lot more comfortable knowing that they know how to be safe and handle inappropriate behavior better.
valuearb 9y ago
A huge amount of married couples met at work. Isn't it possible to ask someone at work out respectfully? I fear we focus on edge cases where guys who do that end up acting like creeps. After all, two people falling in love is more important than any business deal.
- bjt 9y ago
  The question is whether there's a power imbalance. Investor/founder: not OK. Manager/rank and file employee: not OK. Two peers at the same level of the organization: fine by me if it's mutual, but problems arise if it's not.
  - btilly 9y ago
    The problem with peers at the same level is that if they have a messy breakup, it may be hard for them to interact on the job. That said, been there. Done that. Married her. :-)
    - scarface74 9y ago
      I also met my wife at work at a small company. I knew she was a good person and while I wasn't in complete control of whether we broke up, I could control whether the breakup was "bad". The only thing that I could imagine that would make the breakup bad, would be if I didn't show her respect, wasn't honest with her, etc. If I did all of that and we decided to go our separate ways, I feel that we would have been okay professionally. We both needed our jobs and couldn't afford to get fired - especially not in 2009.
- mturmon 9y ago
  The OP described a non-equal situation. Peers in a large org would be different.
- Mz 9y ago
  An investor-founder relationship is akin to a boss-underling relationship. In many companies, sleeping with each other is forbidden if one is a direct report of the other and this is the right way to handle it. If two founders of different companies happen to meet at a conference, there is nothing inherently wrong with them dating (assuming it doesn't cause some kind of conflict of interest due to their businesses). But an investor-founder relationship needs to be platonic. Think of it from this angle: You are a heterosexual man pitching a bunch of heterosexual men to get money for your startup. The industry standard is that investors can sleep with founders that are pitching them. If some woman comes in, sleeps with all the investors on the board and gets scads of money for her startup while you get turned down because there was not enough money for both, are you totes happy with that outcome? The reasons for disallowing an investor-founder romance go far beyond protecting women from predatory male behavior.
pm90 9y ago
Anecdote from personal life: I was meeting potential roommates when I met a girl who I found very attractive. We had a great conversation, but for other reasons (location, timing of leases) it didn't work out. Later, after finding a roommate and moving in, I checked in with her to see if she would like to go out on a date. She replied yes, and we went out and had a great time. Despite not being coworkers, I was mindful of the fact that we had initially met for the purpose of discussing being roommates which I consider a platonic relationship. Just like what the OP says, when I asked her later, she appreciated the fact that I didn't ask her out right away, but waited until later to do so. Its not rocket science to get this right. Its pretty much common sense.
- gpawl 9y ago
  It's neither rocket science not common sense, or it is common sense, but common isn't innate: it's cultural expectations that need to be taught and reminded, so everyone can be their best self.
- joshAg 9y ago
  I disagree that it's common sense, especially in the tech industry. I shared it because of recent high-profiles cases about this issue. Like, we assume the absolute best of Dave McClure, he did not know better and made literally this exact mistake that the article discusses about the boundary between professional and personal lives. If we're still assuming the best, then part of the way to fix this issue is to explain to the people who know don't know better what the boundaries actually are and why. This is the same reason why it's important to teach people about affirmative consent. On the other hand, if we stop assuming the best, then we start getting into "they're violating people's boundaries on purpose, not by accident, so teaching them boundaries will not help, they cannot be helped" territory.
  - pm90 9y ago
    I agree with your point that it may not be common sense. However, please don't use Dave McClure as an example of someone "who didn't know better". He knew exactly what he was doing and apologized only when his actions were being made public by multiple women. Perfect hypothetical example of someone "who doesn't know better" would have been if the OP of the article had ignored the Investor/Founder boundary and asked her out on a date.
a_puppy 9y ago
In most of the recent threads about investors hitting on founders, the HN discussion has focused on the fact that investors have power over founders. However, parts of this blog post seems to imply that hitting on someone in a professional setting is never OK, even if there's no power imbalance: > I guess the point of this story, and why I share it now, is that there is a right way and a wrong way to handle attraction in a professional setting. The right way is to back the fuck off and let people do their work despite any attraction. The wrong way is to blur the line. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on under what circumstances (if ever) it's OK to hit on someone at a corporate holiday party, assuming there is no power imbalance.
- joshAg 9y ago
  Hi, I'm the person who submitted this link (I didn't write it). IMO, assuming no power imbalance it's only ok if you don't work together in any capacity regularly or could, if the relationship goes south, stop working together regularly in a very quick timeframe.
- empath75 9y ago
  If you don't work together and have basically no way to impact each other's careers (i.e., she is a developer and you work in marketing)
2309kdujj 9y ago
This isn't the difficult situation. The difficult situation is one where you develop genuine feelings for someone that you work with every day, intensely, day in and day out. When the attempt of both parties to refrain from a relationship itself becomes an issue that you console each other over, ironically sending you into a relationship. Or what if the woman approached the man, aggressively so? This does happen. Maybe not so difficult, but a different dynamic, and maybe a different reason to refrain, that turns this piece on its head. Although well-intended, there's a certain sexism in these kinds of stories, a kind of "knight in shining armor" for the modern age. I realize that in most cases the issue is male -> female attention, but sometimes it is female -> male, or [fe]male <-> [fe]male, and it seems like we tend to assume everything is the same. I'm trying to figure out what concerns me about this piece, because I'm not sure I have a problem with its content. I'm thinking it's not really what's written in the piece, but the subtext, context, and assumed reasons for writing it, and what to generalize. I guess I worry that in trying to deal with the massive problem of sexual harassment, the actual messiness of other situations becomes stereotyped and painted over. And then we get blowback.
- ec109685 9y ago
  The answer has to be to change jobs if you are in a situation where it would be inappropriate to attempt to form a relationship.
- dwaltrip 9y ago
  I don't have much to say other than I recognize the difficulty in laying out your exploratory thoughts in this manner, and I'm quite appreciative that you did so. I think you are hitting on important subtleties. Of course, that's not to say we shouldn't stop taking big steps to address the pervasive, unsubtle issues.
agumonkey 9y ago
Gosh, I read the title wrong (setting -> typesetting) and thought someone invented a new algorithm to handle kerning through character "attraction".

151 points by joshAg 9y ago

Let me state that I strongly back appropriate behavior between the sexes regardless of the setting. What the author is suggesting is that romance is inappropriate between potential investors and founders, regardless of how objective their roles and interactions are outside the sphere of Romance. I disagree with this zero-sum approach. While it's essential to maintain objectivity, if it takes away the humanity, what exactly is the point of this, or anything

bookmarkacc 9y ago
Because you are there to do business. A romantic approach that is not reciprocated ruins the environment and should not be something that women founders have to deal with.
Mz 9y ago
He got the girl, and without scandal. In comparison, Dave McClure didn't get the hookup he was looking for with Cheryl Yeoh and also has seriously damaged his own career. This is in no way saying you have to give up your humanity. Not hitting on people you shouldn't be hitting on is not like some kind of vow of celibacy. There is a time and place for trying to pursue romance. On the job with another professional whom you have power over is not it.
Analemma_ 9y ago
There are a wide variety of situations-- not just romance-related-- where not only is genuine conflict of interest banned, but even the appearance of conflict of interest is banned, even if all involved can honestly say there is no actual conflict. This is because if there is such an appearance of conflict of interest, it's impossible to fully convince people that nothing is wrong, and that is a toxic dynamic. There's a similar issue at play here.
chrisbennet 9y ago
The "rules" against this sort of behavior exist because people can't be trusted to maintain objectivity in these sorts of situations. "Oh but I really like her." is not an excuse to do whatever you want. Lets take a more common and less obvious situation; dating coworkers: If things don't work out, often one of the pair will need to leave their job - probably her. A considerate person would realize that "Would you like to get drinks tonight?" really means "Hey, lets see if we have some chemistry and if it doesn't work out, I'm OK with you losing your job."
- pertymcpert 9y ago
  Wait, are you saying that dating co-workers is wrong? Seriously?
  - chrisbennet 9y ago
    Yes, dating co-workers is wrong. Yes, seriously. People who just work at the same company, no. Work isn't the same as school. I think males tend to be oblivious to the downsides of asking a scrum-mate out on a date. After all, it's not awkward for them. I mean, who wouldn't be flattered to be asked out by me right! Even if she didn't accept this time, she's really going to enjoy pair programming with me in the future. This is where the concept of consideration comes into play - a considerate person thinks about how their actions will will affect others, in this case the coworker you ask out or the rest of the team.
RonanTheGrey 9y ago
While I normally strongly oppose attempts to remove humanity, in this particular case (this guy's story) that is not what I see. For hundreds (thousands?) of years, the separation between the sexes and the expectations placed on their roles were intensely ingrained in human cultures across the globe. In less than 100 years we have upended thousands of years of cultural norms. That's no small thing. One of the implications of this is that we are encountering situations for which we have absolutely no rule book. We just don't know how to respond to them. At all. We are stumbling around in the dark, blindly trying to figure it out, all the while trying to create a future any of us actually want to live in. I know I wouldn't want to live in a world where my female colleagues were continually plagued by the question of their advancement relying on the fallout of a single attempt at a romantic encounter. That is not the future I want to build. We set these boundaries - like the writer of this article - because the long term effect is that we build a world where men and women can work side by side without destroying their relationships. If more men did as he did, we would not be experiencing the hyper-sensitive environment we are seeing now. The long term effect of this behavior matters far more than the short term desire to hook up. As in all things, there is a time and a place. The moment when a woman is attempting to get her business off the ground, and you can help her sink or swim, is not the time or place to be expressing your interest in her. She's got enough to be worrying about without that. Maybe there will be (or won't be) a later, where that moment IS appropriate. That is what happened in this case. It won't always. He included her point of view and her needs and wants in his decision making. That is what he did. That is an incredible sign of respect. That is the future I want. There is no loss of humanity here - in fact exactly the opposite. Our humanity is also seen in the hard choices we make. That's the humanity I want to be part of.

js2 9y ago

be a decent and respectful person That's all there is to it, and I don't know what else to add. Do some folks not learn this, not care, or just don't know what it means? Really, it's just the Golden Rule isn't it?

joshAg 9y ago
People have different definitions of what is is to be decent and respectful. And really, we should update the golden rule from "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" to something more like "Do unto others as they would have done unto them," because people can have different preferences.
ebiester 9y ago
1. There are multiple cultures, even within predominantly white middle class culture. Each has individual rules. I grew up under one set (observing my parents and their friends, a set of working class individuals) , reached adolescence under another (Evangelical Pentecostal culture), and left that to a third, professional educated rules. (Now, ignore for the moment that I'm gay, which has an entirely set of other groups and expectations.) For Evangelicals, it is acceptable to be friends before dating. In current secular trends in the college educated population, women (generally - there are exceptions) expect a man to be up-front with romantic intentions, unless (as above) there are circumstances preventing that intention. There are boundaries to asking someone out if such changes happen. For example, sometimes it is acceptable-ish to ask someone out when they're exiting (or in) a relationship, and there are times when it's a cause for rejection. Most times, it's cause for rejection, unless it isn't. Can you distill the rules into an easy golden rule pattern? I know I can't.

Mz 9y ago

there is a right way and a wrong way to handle attraction in a professional setting. The right way is to back the fuck off and let people do their work despite any attraction. The wrong way is to blur the line. We need a lot more people saying this sort of thing. I am so glad to see this on the front page.

joshAg 9y ago
NGL, i am pleasantly surprised so far with the responses.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
It's kind of crazy to me that it's not blindingly obvious and needs to be said like it's a hidden wisdom. Isn't it just being a professional? Why is that difficult for some people?
- joshAg 9y ago
  Because there's a large swath of people in the technology industry who consider not understanding social graces well to be a virtue. Most of the time that just comes out as being awkward in a stereotypically nerdy way, but it also manifests as being unable to see what is so wrong with hitting on someone in a business setting or being unable to see why someone might be so upset about it.
  - pm90 9y ago
    Ah, you know what, I had been thinking about this for a while and I think your comment nails it. Most of my programmer friends seem to have some degree of social awkwardness (including myself, although I did recognize it as a liability and chose to change it) and just like you said, its usually just harmless nerdy behavior. But when these same people come across power in any form, that same social awkwardness can cause serious problems.
    - joshAg 9y ago
      You don't even need to be in power for this issue to cause problems. If someone in power does something bad, if the lack of social skills prevents you from realizing what they did was bad, then you're essentially going to let it continue by not speaking out about it and you're going to reinforce that whatever that thing was was actually ok. And this is all done without you even realizing what you are doing, because you don't have the social skills realize that you are doing it at all.

rmason 9y ago

It's important that these stories be told because somehow people need to be led by example this is how you deal with female founders if you're an investor. Eliminate any excuses at all. It's just common sense for a lot of people, but as we've seen recently not all.

roflc0ptic 9y ago
I second that. Modeling appropriate, pro social behavior has to be a part of improving bad behavior. Pitchforks are fun, but it's not how the real work gets done.
qb45 9y ago
For the record, I would be willing to make bets that this sort of high horse white knight moralizing tone as the OP presented will fall on deaf ears where it matters most but whatever.

maerF0x0 9y ago

This story worked out. I wonder how his tune would have changed if she married someone else in the mean time and he missed his chance with her. Seems to be a bit of a confirmation bias.

danbolt 9y ago
Maybe, but I get the sense from his writing that he wouldn't have agonised over losing his chance. He likely would have ended up dating and marrying someone else he got along with.
Mz 9y ago
He knows who he is. His choice revealed to both her and him who he is and that he's a decent guy. I'm a woman. Some man revealing to me that my hopes, dreams and future are something he is willing to trample in pursuit of sexual gratification for himself is not endearing. It is the opposite of endearing. It makes it clear to me he is a predator and cannot be trusted. The question that gets answered by your choices is a question of character. Doing the right thing means you may get a shot at it later and she will know she can trust you. Hitting on some woman under circumstances where it is ruinous to her dreams is not a way to establish a loving relationship with anyone.
pm90 9y ago
Maybe you subscribe to the "one perfect spouse for me" philosophy? From what I see of his attitude from the article, he probably would find someone similar.
- maerF0x0 9y ago
  Not so much that as maybe some amount of dashed hopes?

rayiner 9y ago

Relevant article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp.... A study conducted for the New York Times study shows that Americans, especially women, have quite negative views of being alone with members of the opposite sex. Only 29% of women consider having a drink alone with a man who is not their spouse to be appropriate behavior, and only 63% think a one-on-one workplace meeting is appropriate. Some trends are surprising: when it comes to dinner, 60-70% of women 18-29 view it as inappropriate, but only 30% of women 55+. I'm not sure what the takeaway is. To me it seems like the product of a culture that has trouble drawing appropriate boundaries between romantic and other contexts. Perhaps it is an outgrowth of the fact that people are basically institutionalized from ages 13-22. School is all consuming--it's where you "work," where you socialize, where you pursue romantic relationships. When people get out into the "real world," they have little experience with all the myriad difference social contexts of ordinary life, and see the workplace as a similar environment.

ryandvm 9y ago
I think you're overthinking the dinner thing. The reality is that two millennials are far more likely to have sex on the brain then two senior citizens.
- cowpewter 9y ago
  I've read that many senior living communities have huge STD issues, because all the old folks are having fun and not bothering with condoms because they're all past reproductive age.
- BerislavLopac 9y ago
  You would (will?) be very surprised.
pm90 9y ago
> Some trends are surprising: when it comes to dinner, 60-70% of women 18-29 view it as inappropriate, but only 30% of women 55+. This might just very well be because in the former age bracket, the women are still very young and are not quite experienced in how to handle and deflect unwanted male attention. Older women on the other hand, have been through a lifetime of this and thus may be a lot more comfortable knowing that they know how to be safe and handle inappropriate behavior better.

valuearb 9y ago

A huge amount of married couples met at work. Isn't it possible to ask someone at work out respectfully? I fear we focus on edge cases where guys who do that end up acting like creeps. After all, two people falling in love is more important than any business deal.

bjt 9y ago
The question is whether there's a power imbalance. Investor/founder: not OK. Manager/rank and file employee: not OK. Two peers at the same level of the organization: fine by me if it's mutual, but problems arise if it's not.
- btilly 9y ago
  The problem with peers at the same level is that if they have a messy breakup, it may be hard for them to interact on the job. That said, been there. Done that. Married her. :-)
  - scarface74 9y ago
    I also met my wife at work at a small company. I knew she was a good person and while I wasn't in complete control of whether we broke up, I could control whether the breakup was "bad". The only thing that I could imagine that would make the breakup bad, would be if I didn't show her respect, wasn't honest with her, etc. If I did all of that and we decided to go our separate ways, I feel that we would have been okay professionally. We both needed our jobs and couldn't afford to get fired - especially not in 2009.
mturmon 9y ago
The OP described a non-equal situation. Peers in a large org would be different.
Mz 9y ago
An investor-founder relationship is akin to a boss-underling relationship. In many companies, sleeping with each other is forbidden if one is a direct report of the other and this is the right way to handle it. If two founders of different companies happen to meet at a conference, there is nothing inherently wrong with them dating (assuming it doesn't cause some kind of conflict of interest due to their businesses). But an investor-founder relationship needs to be platonic. Think of it from this angle: You are a heterosexual man pitching a bunch of heterosexual men to get money for your startup. The industry standard is that investors can sleep with founders that are pitching them. If some woman comes in, sleeps with all the investors on the board and gets scads of money for her startup while you get turned down because there was not enough money for both, are you totes happy with that outcome? The reasons for disallowing an investor-founder romance go far beyond protecting women from predatory male behavior.

pm90 9y ago

Anecdote from personal life: I was meeting potential roommates when I met a girl who I found very attractive. We had a great conversation, but for other reasons (location, timing of leases) it didn't work out. Later, after finding a roommate and moving in, I checked in with her to see if she would like to go out on a date. She replied yes, and we went out and had a great time. Despite not being coworkers, I was mindful of the fact that we had initially met for the purpose of discussing being roommates which I consider a platonic relationship. Just like what the OP says, when I asked her later, she appreciated the fact that I didn't ask her out right away, but waited until later to do so. Its not rocket science to get this right. Its pretty much common sense.

gpawl 9y ago
It's neither rocket science not common sense, or it is common sense, but common isn't innate: it's cultural expectations that need to be taught and reminded, so everyone can be their best self.
joshAg 9y ago
I disagree that it's common sense, especially in the tech industry. I shared it because of recent high-profiles cases about this issue. Like, we assume the absolute best of Dave McClure, he did not know better and made literally this exact mistake that the article discusses about the boundary between professional and personal lives. If we're still assuming the best, then part of the way to fix this issue is to explain to the people who know don't know better what the boundaries actually are and why. This is the same reason why it's important to teach people about affirmative consent. On the other hand, if we stop assuming the best, then we start getting into "they're violating people's boundaries on purpose, not by accident, so teaching them boundaries will not help, they cannot be helped" territory.
- pm90 9y ago
  I agree with your point that it may not be common sense. However, please don't use Dave McClure as an example of someone "who didn't know better". He knew exactly what he was doing and apologized only when his actions were being made public by multiple women. Perfect hypothetical example of someone "who doesn't know better" would have been if the OP of the article had ignored the Investor/Founder boundary and asked her out on a date.

a_puppy 9y ago

In most of the recent threads about investors hitting on founders, the HN discussion has focused on the fact that investors have power over founders. However, parts of this blog post seems to imply that hitting on someone in a professional setting is never OK, even if there's no power imbalance: > I guess the point of this story, and why I share it now, is that there is a right way and a wrong way to handle attraction in a professional setting. The right way is to back the fuck off and let people do their work despite any attraction. The wrong way is to blur the line. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on under what circumstances (if ever) it's OK to hit on someone at a corporate holiday party, assuming there is no power imbalance.

joshAg 9y ago
Hi, I'm the person who submitted this link (I didn't write it). IMO, assuming no power imbalance it's only ok if you don't work together in any capacity regularly or could, if the relationship goes south, stop working together regularly in a very quick timeframe.
empath75 9y ago
If you don't work together and have basically no way to impact each other's careers (i.e., she is a developer and you work in marketing)

2309kdujj 9y ago

This isn't the difficult situation. The difficult situation is one where you develop genuine feelings for someone that you work with every day, intensely, day in and day out. When the attempt of both parties to refrain from a relationship itself becomes an issue that you console each other over, ironically sending you into a relationship. Or what if the woman approached the man, aggressively so? This does happen. Maybe not so difficult, but a different dynamic, and maybe a different reason to refrain, that turns this piece on its head. Although well-intended, there's a certain sexism in these kinds of stories, a kind of "knight in shining armor" for the modern age. I realize that in most cases the issue is male -> female attention, but sometimes it is female -> male, or [fe]male <-> [fe]male, and it seems like we tend to assume everything is the same. I'm trying to figure out what concerns me about this piece, because I'm not sure I have a problem with its content. I'm thinking it's not really what's written in the piece, but the subtext, context, and assumed reasons for writing it, and what to generalize. I guess I worry that in trying to deal with the massive problem of sexual harassment, the actual messiness of other situations becomes stereotyped and painted over. And then we get blowback.

ec109685 9y ago
The answer has to be to change jobs if you are in a situation where it would be inappropriate to attempt to form a relationship.
dwaltrip 9y ago
I don't have much to say other than I recognize the difficulty in laying out your exploratory thoughts in this manner, and I'm quite appreciative that you did so. I think you are hitting on important subtleties. Of course, that's not to say we shouldn't stop taking big steps to address the pervasive, unsubtle issues.

agumonkey 9y ago

Gosh, I read the title wrong (setting -> typesetting) and thought someone invented a new algorithm to handle kerning through character "attraction".