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As I said, many good engineers are not willing to spend unpaid time auditioning for a job they aren't yet sure they want, doing work they can't reuse, by taking
by williamsmj 9y ago
As I said, many good engineers are not willing to spend unpaid time auditioning for a job they aren't yet sure they want, doing work they can't reuse, by taking a formal standardized test.
It may in fact be a better hiring practice in terms of its ability to predict job performance. But you will _lose good candidates_.
And in particular, you will lose experienced candidates. You are embedding biases toward younger (and therefore less experienced) male coders in your hiring practices if you require what is, from their point of view, free work. (You can see the biases in your "with a beer next to your laptop" remark, for example.)
- poletopole 9y agoUsually the work sample is something simple that doesn't take longer than a day or two. Many interviews that don't do work samples can go on longer than that and accomplish nothing. I was hired after doing a work sample that took a day. I was still paid for my work, irregardless of being hired. The work sample wasn't "standardized", just a typical task one of the other developers would have done otherwise. So I would encourage any employers reading to try this process out--it's better for both parties.
- bit_logic 9y agoI'm an experienced engineer (10+ years) and I would favor this process way more than the current algorithm/DS interview. It's the algorithm/DS interview that really favors young graduates. They already have an advantage because college knowledge is still fresh in their minds. And they often have the free time to grind leetcode for months. Experienced engineers often have families or other priorities and free time is hard to find.
- tptacek 9y agoYou updated your comment after I replied to it, and so I updated mine. Source: I ran a work-sample recruiting process for the largest software security company in the US (after it acquired my startup, which was one of the top 5 in the US), and our process most definitely was not biased to younger workers. Work samples drastically improved diversity. Edit You've edited your own comment again, which makes you very hard to respond to. If you want to rebut anything I've written so far, can I ask you to copy it into a reply to this comment?
- williamsmj 9y agoSorry, new commenter, unfamiliar with the etiquette of the edit button. I'm done.
- chucksmash 9y agoI agree with you somewhat, but couldn't you just as easily replace "unpaid weekend writing code" with: - unpaid weekend updating resume - unpaid weekend practicing algos - unpaid weekend browsing job sites just as easily? I don't think asking job seekers to be interested enough to give a work sample is an undue burden. If that filters out people playing the numbers by applying to every opening...is that such a bad thing?
- aNoob7000 9y agoIt depends on how far along the interview process you've gotten to with a potential employer and if this is a step away from being hired. If the potential employer is asking for code samples up front, I think that's a bad sign. Let us talk about the work environment, expectations of the position, and then we can focus on my tech skills.
- ng12 9y agoIt's a problem of scale. Spend half an afternoon skimming through CtCI (shouldn't need much more as a seasoned developer) and you're good for N number of job interviews. I'll take that rather than spend 4*N hours on take-home problems in addition to time spent on-site.
- morgante 9y agoIf I spend a weekend updating my resume, practicing algos, or browsing job listings, then that time is useful for all jobs I'm applying to and interested in. If I spend my weekend on a work sample assignment, it's only applicable for that one company which might very easily not give me a compelling offer or be somewhere I'd want to work. At this point, I'll only do work assignments if I'm already very familiar with the company and have reason to suspect they'll give me a compelling offer.
- desiderantes 9y ago>You are embedding biases toward younger (and therefore less experienced) male coders Younger maybe, but where does the male part come from?
- williamsmj 9y agoLess likely to have personal obligations to others, e.g. family. Less likely to feel social pressure to do time-consuming emotional labor outside of work.
- tptacek 9y agoHow is the standard interview process, which often requires candidates to submit to multiple rounds of in-person interviews, sometimes even requiring travel, better than a process that people can do mostly from their homes?