3 ms·

>You don't need a realtor, fyi, just a good real estate lawyer, Lawyer prices will obviously be different in different parts of the country, (so maybe a lot ch

by opo 9y ago

>You don't need a realtor, fyi, just a good real estate lawyer, Lawyer prices will obviously be different in different parts of the country, (so maybe a lot cheaper where you are) but I knew someone who arranged a transaction without a realtor and paid a lawyer a lot more than $1,000 to put together all the necessary documents. One thousand seems like a good deal. >...which you generally need anyway when buying/selling a house. You've found it necessary to always consult a lawyer when buying/selling even though realtors were involved? Why? What value did they add?

abawany 9y ago
In my case, there was always a lawyer involved in the contract with a fixed for dealing with documentation, as part of the closing costs. I never explicitly involved a lawyer but have always been intrigued by the idea of doing a FSBO deal with a lawyer generating all of the real estate contracts for a fixed fee.
ericb 9y ago
A house sale is really a large contract agreement with a number of finer points. The legal fees were maybe $750 - 1200 but memory is sketchy on that. There are filings necessary with the state and other items that make it legal, and at least in Massachusetts USA, it is a lot different than say selling a mountain bike. Banks need certain info for loans, there's the deed, etc, inspections, etc. When you are signing your 20th piece of paper, you realize you needed the lawyer. One dirty secret of realtors is that all this work is handled by lawyers, and the impossible-looking parts of a real estate transaction are handled by lawyers who understand it and have it down to a fixed-price cookie-cutter process for their locality. They did "consult" with me a bit and gave some "free" advice, but I just paid the fix price for doc generation mainly.
- opo 9y ago
  I agree it would be a bit risky to buy/sell real estate without any outside help. My point was just that if you are already using a realtor, it shouldn't generally be necessary to also hire a lawyer.
  - ericb 9y ago
    The realtor and bank rely on the lawyer for your transaction and documentation. When I say "you need a lawyer anyway", even if you used a realtor, a lawyer drew up the docs for closing, and you hired the lawyer who put together the closing docs, although you may not realize it. You are paying the lawyer directly as a line item in your closing costs, so they are technically "your lawyer." Most people think the realtor had something net-positive to do with the magic house-transfering documents, but, not really. This may vary by state/locale.
    - opo 9y ago
      >...This may vary by state/locale. Yea might be different where I am. Like any signed document, I am sure a lawyer somewhere created the templates for the selling agreement, the purchase agreement, the loan documents and closing documents etc but I don't recall seeing any line item for a lawyer's time on any document nor did I ever talk to a lawyer. (Thank goodness for this as a real estate lawyer I know charges about 400 an hour. Fortunately there is nothing unusual about most loans/purchases/closings and lawyers don't typically have to get involved in each transaction - around here loan processors, escrow officers, etc actually do the work and they are much less expensive than a lawyer would be.)
  - just4themoney 9y ago
    How do you get a mortgage without a lawyer? Our bank required the lawyer to do the title search, title settlement, and title recording - according to my closing disclosure, which I just consulted.
    - opo 9y ago
      Might be different in different areas. In places I've lived, the title company handles all of this - the seller doesn't hire a lawyer - a large title company likely has a corporate lawyer in case something comes up, but otherwise they have people whose job is it to do the search and put together the closing documents.
      - 9y ago
runako 9y ago
Just to keep pricing in context, the media home value in the US is right around $200k. So the transfer cost ends up being ~$12k. If the RE attorneys (on each side) each spent a full day @ $200/hour on the closing, you're looking at $3,200. That creates an extra $9k to split between the parties. And there's no way a closing takes a full day for an attorney (and most will be less than $200/hr). The best part is that that same $3,200 will transfer a house that costs a lot more. The more expensive the house, the more you should want to use a lawyer over a realtor.
- opo 9y ago
  >... That creates an extra $9k to split between the parties. And there's no way a closing takes a full day for an attorney (and most will be less than $200/hr). Yes, most brokers use standard forms, there isn't much actual expense there for them - which is a good thing because a real estate attorney I know bills at more than $400 per hour. A good realtor does a LOT more than just fill out the contracts for you to sign. The realtor will spend lots of time scheduling inspections, helping find contractors, being at the property to watch contractors, scheduling the photographer, putting the ad on MLS, running open houses, answering questions from buyers, negotiating with buyers, working with the title company, arranging to hand the keys off to the buyer, etc, etc. You are paying for their experience to know what needs to be done and for the time it takes to do all those tasks that I mentioned (and others). The standard commission costs are high, but there are brokers like Redfin who are less expensive.
  - just4themoney 9y ago
    You (the buyer) schedules the inspection, you can ask the real estate agent to do it for you but it's a simple phone call. I don't understand the contractors statement, a contractor is not a usual part of a real estate transaction, at least in my experience? Once again, scheduling photographs is a simple phone call to a photographer. Putting an ad on the MLS can be done yourself for a small fee - https://fsbo.com/flat-fee-mls https://fsbo.com/flat-fee-mls Buyer's questions can be better answered yourself, most sellers agents are unable to answer any questions and they'll have to relay most questions to you anyways, once again, my experience. Open houses are more about generating leads for the agent then they are about showing your house. Negotiating with buyers can be done yourself easily. Working with the title company isn't something real estate agents do, not around here anyways. My lawyer handled all the title stuff. Plus what sort of "work" does an agent need to do with the title company? Handing off the keys? Seriously? That is done at closing and shouldn't cost $5,000+.

by opo 9y ago

abawany 9y ago

In my case, there was always a lawyer involved in the contract with a fixed for dealing with documentation, as part of the closing costs. I never explicitly involved a lawyer but have always been intrigued by the idea of doing a FSBO deal with a lawyer generating all of the real estate contracts for a fixed fee.

ericb 9y ago

A house sale is really a large contract agreement with a number of finer points. The legal fees were maybe $750 - 1200 but memory is sketchy on that. There are filings necessary with the state and other items that make it legal, and at least in Massachusetts USA, it is a lot different than say selling a mountain bike. Banks need certain info for loans, there's the deed, etc, inspections, etc. When you are signing your 20th piece of paper, you realize you needed the lawyer. One dirty secret of realtors is that all this work is handled by lawyers, and the impossible-looking parts of a real estate transaction are handled by lawyers who understand it and have it down to a fixed-price cookie-cutter process for their locality. They did "consult" with me a bit and gave some "free" advice, but I just paid the fix price for doc generation mainly.

opo 9y ago
I agree it would be a bit risky to buy/sell real estate without any outside help. My point was just that if you are already using a realtor, it shouldn't generally be necessary to also hire a lawyer.
- ericb 9y ago
  The realtor and bank rely on the lawyer for your transaction and documentation. When I say "you need a lawyer anyway", even if you used a realtor, a lawyer drew up the docs for closing, and you hired the lawyer who put together the closing docs, although you may not realize it. You are paying the lawyer directly as a line item in your closing costs, so they are technically "your lawyer." Most people think the realtor had something net-positive to do with the magic house-transfering documents, but, not really. This may vary by state/locale.
  - opo 9y ago
    >...This may vary by state/locale. Yea might be different where I am. Like any signed document, I am sure a lawyer somewhere created the templates for the selling agreement, the purchase agreement, the loan documents and closing documents etc but I don't recall seeing any line item for a lawyer's time on any document nor did I ever talk to a lawyer. (Thank goodness for this as a real estate lawyer I know charges about 400 an hour. Fortunately there is nothing unusual about most loans/purchases/closings and lawyers don't typically have to get involved in each transaction - around here loan processors, escrow officers, etc actually do the work and they are much less expensive than a lawyer would be.)
- just4themoney 9y ago
  How do you get a mortgage without a lawyer? Our bank required the lawyer to do the title search, title settlement, and title recording - according to my closing disclosure, which I just consulted.
  - opo 9y ago
    Might be different in different areas. In places I've lived, the title company handles all of this - the seller doesn't hire a lawyer - a large title company likely has a corporate lawyer in case something comes up, but otherwise they have people whose job is it to do the search and put together the closing documents.
    - 9y ago

runako 9y ago

Just to keep pricing in context, the media home value in the US is right around $200k. So the transfer cost ends up being ~$12k. If the RE attorneys (on each side) each spent a full day @ $200/hour on the closing, you're looking at $3,200. That creates an extra $9k to split between the parties. And there's no way a closing takes a full day for an attorney (and most will be less than $200/hr). The best part is that that same $3,200 will transfer a house that costs a lot more. The more expensive the house, the more you should want to use a lawyer over a realtor.

opo 9y ago
>... That creates an extra $9k to split between the parties. And there's no way a closing takes a full day for an attorney (and most will be less than $200/hr). Yes, most brokers use standard forms, there isn't much actual expense there for them - which is a good thing because a real estate attorney I know bills at more than $400 per hour. A good realtor does a LOT more than just fill out the contracts for you to sign. The realtor will spend lots of time scheduling inspections, helping find contractors, being at the property to watch contractors, scheduling the photographer, putting the ad on MLS, running open houses, answering questions from buyers, negotiating with buyers, working with the title company, arranging to hand the keys off to the buyer, etc, etc. You are paying for their experience to know what needs to be done and for the time it takes to do all those tasks that I mentioned (and others). The standard commission costs are high, but there are brokers like Redfin who are less expensive.
- just4themoney 9y ago
  You (the buyer) schedules the inspection, you can ask the real estate agent to do it for you but it's a simple phone call. I don't understand the contractors statement, a contractor is not a usual part of a real estate transaction, at least in my experience? Once again, scheduling photographs is a simple phone call to a photographer. Putting an ad on the MLS can be done yourself for a small fee - https://fsbo.com/flat-fee-mls https://fsbo.com/flat-fee-mls Buyer's questions can be better answered yourself, most sellers agents are unable to answer any questions and they'll have to relay most questions to you anyways, once again, my experience. Open houses are more about generating leads for the agent then they are about showing your house. Negotiating with buyers can be done yourself easily. Working with the title company isn't something real estate agents do, not around here anyways. My lawyer handled all the title stuff. Plus what sort of "work" does an agent need to do with the title company? Handing off the keys? Seriously? That is done at closing and shouldn't cost $5,000+.