8 ms·
NY hotels trying to outlaw short-term home sublets (i.e. AirBnB)
- samratjp 16y agoSweet - this can only get more free publicity for AirBnB & similar services.
- w1ntermute 16y agoUnless the bill is actually passed, in which case it would have a significant negative impact as well.
- jrockway 16y agoYeah, just like how nobody uses illegal drugs anymore.
- nerme 16y agoThe people who sell illegal drugs don't advertise the fact on the web, at least not for very long.
- dschobel 16y agoHave you been to craigslist? Seriously, go take a look.
- natrius 16y agohttp://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2010/06/23/man_arrested_for_selling_marij.html http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/aust... The "not for very long" part still stands.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- pavel_lishin 16y agoI wonder what the maximum occupancy laws are like. Could you get around this by simply putting down on paper that you're subletting for a month when they're just staying overnight?
- p3ll0n 16y agoInteresting comment on related article by NYT that offers some insight into what type of behavior this bill may be aimed at curbing ... http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/bill-could-make-subletting-a-tad-illegal/#comment-700185 http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/bill-could-make...
- djb_hackernews 16y agoI've seriously underestimated the popularity of airbnb if people are purpose building structures (undercover no less) for the sole purpose of marketing them as a place to crash on airbnb. Also amazed that neighborhood groups have "Illegal Hotels Committee"s
- starkfist 16y agoAlso amazed that neighborhood groups have "Illegal Hotels Committee"s NYC is close quarters. It's not necessarily cool to have a different set of partying neighbors every day of the week.
- sstrudeau 16y agoYeah, our neighbor pretty blatantly runs an illegal hotel out of her house in Brooklyn. Usually it's fine but she often has young, European guests who like to party in her backyard (about 10 feet from our bedroom window) until 6am. Luckily this is reserved for weekend evenings (most days) so we don't complain; though if it got out of hand, it might be nice to have some alternative to (almost never enforced) noise ordinances. That said, I'd rather live with this than cut off opportunities/efficiencies created by airbnb!
- natrius 16y agoTo solve the noise issue, lower the burden of proof for noise citations for people who are renting out their apartments as hotel rooms. When landlords have a stake in keeping the noise down, it seems like it would be easier to keep in check.
- pavel_lishin 16y agoSomeone threatening your business model? They're not innovators, they're criminals!
- dotcoma 16y agoHome cooking is killing the restaurant industry.
- fgf 16y agoIf they could, they would ... Stringent health/safety standards actually do this already. There isn't anyone running small cafes from their kitchens in Manhattan, wich is a shame.
- sstrudeau 16y agoActually, there are quite a few "underground supper clubs" in NYC. Typically, they're held in private apartments with a prix fixe menu. One article from March on this trend: http://www.theatlantic.com/food/archive/2010/03/going-rogue-americas-underground-chefs/38090/ http://www.theatlantic.com/food/archive/2010/03/going-rogue-...
- pavel_lishin 16y agoI cannot fucking wait to live in a city where not only does the concept of "underground supper club" exist, but where newspapers cover them.
- dman 16y agoYes getting legislation on your side and suing people will completely undo fundamental shifts that are happening in the real world. NOT. Hotel Chains should be the ones at the front coming up with services like airbnb or integrating them. The hotel brand can offer as a front to loosely federated room providers and the hotel steps in by doing quality control and enforcing standards. In fact people in the hotel industry should be overjoyed that this model removes two of the big costs of running hotels - hotel staff and realty costs for the property. All the hotels have to do is to be umbrella brands and get "franchise" service providers.
- SoftwareMaven 16y agoThe hotel industry has not changed significantly in a thousand years (maybe more). There are few industries I can think of that are more historically defined than the inn with the inn keeper. Aside from the implications of the traditions, it is also a business model that has worked remarkably well for a long time. I doubt they are going to be keen to jump quickly on a major disruption.
- dantheman 16y agoActually, I think Conrad Hilton revolutionized the hotel industry - the creation of business hotels, providing a similar experience around the world, 99 year leases on property etc. His autobiography "Be My Guest" is actually quite good.
- dman 16y agoThanks for the book recommendation, added to the reading list.
- sdurkin 16y agoWhen they start trying to outlaw you, you know you've made a big dent in their bottom line.
- moolave 16y agoAnd this is where the startup needs to partner up with other powerful conglomerates. Like YouTube going to Google after being relentlessly sued by Viacom.
- moolave 16y agoAnd this is where the startup needs to partner up with other powerful conglomerates. Like YouTube going to Google after being relentlessly sued by Viacom.
- acangiano 16y agoNothing is as effective as government when it comes to curbing innovation.
- ArturSoler 16y agoGood to find something that government is effective at.
- wdewind 16y agoI'm mostly interested that this doesn't touch on the more basic issue: AirBNB is illegal not only due to short term hotel law, but also due to sublease law in NYC. You CANNOT sublet an apartment for more than it is worth in New York. I've met and heard of more than a few people who rent apartments and use AirBNB as a primary source of (as OP points out, untaxed) income. I'm surprised NYC landlords aren't more up in arms about this. I don't agree with making it illegal outright, but I actually am kind of in favor of regulating and taxing this better, for the issues the OP talks about as well as the sublease issues. Edit: After thinking about this a little more I realize the OP goes 90% of the way but doesn't quite cross the finish line with the argument. AirBNB IS the regulatory institution, and is doing a better job than the govt. My sublease point still stands.
- starkfist 16y agoNYC is scam central when it comes to subleasing and renting out rooms. There are tons of people in rent controlled apartments who have no moral qualms about making a buck off of their sublettor or roommate. Another reason AirBNB is interesting because they are making it obvious who these people are and where they live...
- wdewind 16y agoAbsolutely. The NYC real estate market is an absolute nightmare in so many ways. Right now it seems most akin to the DeBeers control over the diamond market (ie: an industry based on false scarcity).
- sstrudeau 16y agoNo, I think apartments really are scarce. It's not like landlords are sitting on vast quantities of inventory to drive up rents. That said, rent regulation (mostly rent stabilization vs. rent control, these days) does skew the market, creating a small number of lottery winners lucky to have below-market rents and driving up rents for everyone else competing for the unregulated inventory, regardless of their economic status.
- joshwa 16y agoIs the rental contract between the customer and the room provider or between the customer and airbnb? One way to approach enforcement would to be to set a threshold on the number of units a room provider can offer without being subject to the hotel regulations. AirBnB can easily enforce such restrictions.
- _delirium 16y agoImo, it'd be a good idea for AirBnB to independently attempt some sort of threshold like that. I think its strongest niche is rooms or couches rented out by actual people who also live at that location. But there are (esp in NYC) a decent number of listings that are basically hostels / unlicensed hotels, and not all are entirely up-front about the fact that you're renting a room from a commercial operation that manages a bunch of rooms in the property, not from an individual who lives there. The rise of those kinds of operators has definitely made me warier of using AirBnB now, while I used to be able to assume that most listings on the site were legit individuals renting out rooms/couches in their own homes.
- _delirium 16y agoDoes that mean these are actually legal currently? I assumed that they were illegal in most jurisdictions, since most municipalities have some sort of regulation on short-term rentals, at least to the extent of requiring registration and an occupancy tax paid, which most AirBnB 'landlords' aren't complying with. But enforcement is difficult / not a priority when it comes to single individuals renting out a room--- enforcement is usually directed more towards, say, someone who owns an entire apartment complex running an unlicensed hotel out of it.
- ctrager 16y ago"Chicago poised to license, regulate vacation-apartment rentals": http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel/ct-biz-0629-vacation-rental--20100628,0,1238267.story http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel/ct-biz-0629-vacation-re...
- m0nastic 16y agoLast week I rented a room for a week through airbnb.com at a place that is basically running a commercial hotel operation (as an aside, the place was great) while apartment hunting in NYC. While there, my girlfriend dug up a bunch of stories about the neighbors complaining about condo unit owners leasing out units to this place. I can understand both sides of the argument; if I'd just bought a condo in a building I wouldn't be happy about a large majority of the other units being rented out every night to tourists. I got the distinct impression that there had been a problem with crime and people being disruptive in the buildings recently, although the whole time we were there it was quiet. Apparently the owner of this hotel has approached a bunch of building owners with vacant condos and offered to lease them. The building owners are very happy (as apparently they are getting more then they would to rent them as apartments). I will say that I stayed in a giant two bedroom loft in Williamsburg for about half the cost of a "regular hotel"; so it's definitely appealing. After checking out, I actually got an email from the hotel with the number for New York Speaker's office asking us to call them about bill Bill A10008.
- fgf 16y agoHaving a steady stream of noisy neighbours is no different from having one. The solution is the same; hold whoever rents the apartment accountable. (This would be easier if throwing people out was.)
- fgf 16y agoSeriously? If a couple gets drunk and play loud music 4 nights a week thats equal too a couple of tourists doing the same thing. And I would bet that loud tourists are a very small subset of noisy neighbours; in any case the person who rents the apartment can and should be held accountable. It should also be obvious that laws that make it easier for landlords to throw out renters who create problems (and perhaps make them liable if they don't) could effectively solve this problem. There is a difference between brevity and snarkiness.
- varjag 16y agoUh no. You can have a noisy neighbor, go through a lengthy feud involving building administration and law enforcement, and finally make them reasonably quiet at night. Now, try doing that with the tourists who are in just for a couple of days and don't give a damn.
- jeandenis 16y agoSimilar initiatives have already be pushed in other cities with vibrant short-term rental markets. Short term sublets are already outlawed in some neighborhoods of London (e.g. Belgravia, with a potential fine of ~20k pounds). There is also a similar law in Paris since last December, although as a matter of practice it is only enforced after complaints from co-op boards and neighbors who get annoyed at the constant stream of vacation renters. The hotel lobby was behind the law in Paris. Part of the justification was also that owners of short-term rentals, often foreigners themselves, do not declare the rental income on the properties.
- callmeed 16y agoI think is only going to happen more and more across the country. I understand AirBnB is disruptive to some degree, but you have to consider: - Cities that rely on tourism generate revenue from hotel "bed taxes" which are often higher or in addition to sales tax - People who are making money on AirBnB by renting out rooms probably aren't paying income tax on it (call it a hunch) - All the sublease/short-term laws that exist already. For example, in Shell Beach, CA (near where I'm at) you cannot rent a house/room for less than 1 month. People on VRBO are already sketchy about this when you call. - I still see significant liability issues for both sides. Seriously, what happens if you rent out a room illegally and the guy/gal slips and falls in your shower? What if your dog bites them? I want AirBnB to do well, but could enough local/state government regulations threaten their growth/existence?
- madh 16y agoMany stadiums are funded with municipal funds that come from tourism and hotel taxes.
- callmeed 16y agoExactly. Here's an example: http://www.noozhawk.com/local_news/article/042110_bed_tax_update http://www.noozhawk.com/local_news/article/042110_bed_tax_up... Santa Barbara, which is a medium-sized city at best, generates over $11M a year in TOT/Bed taxes. Do you think they're just going to sit by and let people eat away at that revenue? No way. They're going to have "Richard from accounting" monitor AirBnB and other sites–and start threatening people. Maybe they'll give them an option to remove their listing or register and start paying taxes. Since no one will want to go through health and fire code inspections or worry about taxes, they'll just remove it. That's all speculation, of course. But enforcement can't be too difficult (at least, not on the RIAA level).
- picasso81 16y agoAirbnb didn't invent vacation rentals or sublets. VRBO/Homeaway and Craigslist, the dominant players in the space, have been doing this for years. You bring up good bullet points but if they were real issues, Homeaway probably wouldn't be the $1B company it is today. This is nothing more than hotel lobby groups pushing a bill through their pockets. Occupancy rates are recovering from an all time low (as in lowest in 40 years) and they see cutting off vacation rentals as a strategy for improvement. Mayor Bloomberg even thanks the Hotel lobby groups in his press release http://bit.ly/9iNt3Q http://bit.ly/9iNt3Q. Separately, there seems to be a misconception that Airbnb is hands off with taxes, when in fact hosts who meet the appropriate income standards are issued a 1099 form. Over time, a city like NY will most likely see a drop in tourism if (a) if the vacation rental industry is removed from the playing field, and (b) hotel prices stay the same (or go back up to 2007 standards). There is a large class of travelers who cannot afford NYC on $300/night rates, and will likely still travel, but choose to spend their money elsewhere.
- jcromartie 16y agoIt's bills like these (when passed) that make me laugh in the face of people who tell me we have a free market economy.
- Mc_Big_G 16y agoWell, now I know my original post wasn't misplaced! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1471654 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1471654 Prior to reading some of the comments from NYC residents, I was vehemently opposed to this kind of government interference, but now I'm not so sure. It would suck to live next to some of these people. I wonder if entire building communities could vote on whether to allow this individually so either everyone agrees or disagrees and then has to live with it.
- mleonhard 16y agoA similar restriction is in place in Kauai, but the short-term rental industry is somehow still operating.
- loewenskind 16y agoI've got an idea. Since the government is probably going to keep on giving existing players legislative help to keep competition out anyway maybe what we should do is pass an "Innovation stiflation act". That is, if you come to the government asking for a law to keep out your competitors then they assign an assessor (the same guy who values my house 40%" above what I could actually get for it) to evaluate how much revenue you're going to get by not having these competitors and we tax that money at, say, 80%. If we're not going to get the benefit competition would bring at least we should get tax revenue out of it.
- maxharris 16y agoThat assessor will be bribed. Instead of advocating an idea that attempts to turn two wrongs into a right (tacking more regulation onto a problem you admit is caused by regulation), advocate for something more fundamental: the complete separation of state and economics.
- mhp 16y agoThis passed the NY Senate and is now in the Assembly. I wrote to my senator (he co-sponsored the bill and obviously voted for it) and they called me (which was nice). Apparently there is supposed to be an exemption if the owner/renter is present.
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