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For groups like it, the only fix would be to not create it to begin with. That is to say, it's the usual--improve the economy, secularize the world, prevent pe

For groups like it, the only fix would be to not create it to begin with. That is to say, it's the usual--improve the economy, secularize the world, prevent people from feeling desperate enough that forming such groups feels like a good idea. Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones; push the world closer to being a cultural monoculture. It's worth doing, but in the meantime, you have to fight them when they pop up. There'll be lash-back to any attempt at doing this, too.

adrianN 9y ago
Some people don't like being secularized and might start shooting if you try too hard.
- Filligree 9y ago
  That's a problem, for sure. Ideally you do this slowly enough that no-one gets very upset, but... What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? If you push heavily then people on all sides get upset, but if you don't then you're overlooking suffering. It doesn't get any less real just because it's far away.
  - meric 9y ago
    > What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? What do you do about a country where greed, lust, power permeates their entire leadership, leading to gross economic, social and emotional inequality within the country, willingness to express unchecked interference in others, an unsubstantiated belief in their own cultural superiority, and along with all other manifestations of the absolute lack of modesty in all layers of society, through all behaviours? You try to get out of the way, as far as possible, mentally, emotionally, socially, physically and hope they shoot themselves on the foot enough by the time they arrive they can't muck you up. You may have gotten far away, but it doesn't get any less real. Keep going, for they are chasing you, hunting you down.
- mamcx 9y ago
  The secularized are the ones that start the wars, topple governments, build better killer weapons, train future-terrorists, profit more from war, dominate in war expending, do the invading, etc.
nothrabannosir 9y ago
> Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones I see what you mean, but careful with that :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#United_States_role https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... not to mention Iraq When you start mixing "middle east" and interference of any kind in a sentence, no matter how benign, it's an extremely sensitive topic. The west has blood on its hands there. You could even argue that IS is a result of western influence in the middle east. I know you said "ideals", which is technically different. But at this point, it warrants at least a footnote.
- zxcmx 9y ago
  I sometimes forget the HN audience doesn't have all this context. You're totally right. Thanks.
michaelmior 9y ago
> Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones I'm not convinced that "Western" ideals are always what should be spreading. More importantly, phrasing this way implicitly gives the West the moral high ground which is unfortunately not always deserved.
- pluma 9y ago
  It's not so much that Western ideals aren't morally superior, it's more that Westerns often suck at implementing and sticking to those ideals (hence why we call them "ideals" and not "standard operating procedures").
meric 9y ago
Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones; push the world closer to being a cultural monoculture. As an eastern man with an eastern wife, that sounds incredibly evil. How about you do what you do and we do what we do.
- Filligree 9y ago
  We may not be talking about the same thing. I'm talking about ideals like... - Don't treat women like chattel. - In general, consider all people to be equally valuable. - Trust the people you meet. Be able to trust them. Don't abuse the trust. (This means not needing regulations and inspections of everything.) - Follow the rules, follow the spirit as well as letter of contracts, and don't attempt to twist every role into benefiting yourself or your tribe. ("Don't be corrupt.") - If, following the rules of society, you fail -- don't step outside the rules in order to win. If these ideals sound incredibly generic and universal, then congratulations, you've already been infected. For the majority of human history, and in large parts of the world, they are in no way common. There are even parts of Europe which break some or all of these. Notice that I didn't say "Push western culture", though I wouldn't be sad if that were to naturally spread. It's only the specific cultural innovations that allow us to get along with each other that I care about. -- Anyone who breaks the latter half of that set, I'll be upset and annoyed at them, and will be disinclined to trade. I certainly won't want them in my country. Anyone who breaks the top half... well, if they're removing the agency of half their population then I'd feel fine about removing theirs. That's grounds for heavy-handed efforts. -- Actually, "western culture" may be a misnomer. There was such a thing; it involved maypole dances, mjød, burning witches and constant warfare. It wasn't necessarily nice, and it isn't what we're doing now. What's been happening could be more suitably termed "universal culture", as it is -- for better or worse -- closer to being highly optimized culture, rather than historically-based. (Optimized for what? Not necessarily our good; cola is incredibly tasty, but I avoid it in all cases.) Someone else already explained this better than me: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    - Trust the people you meet. Be able to trust them. Don't abuse the trust. (This means not needing regulations and inspections of everything.) - Follow the rules, follow the spirit as well as letter of contracts, and don't attempt to twist every role into benefiting yourself or your tribe. ("Don't be corrupt.") The fun thing is that the same people that are enthusiastic for military adventurism are the ones that are also grinding those values to dust. I guess if Abu Ghraib hadn't happened, in the context of a war that was rushed into for wrong reasons, your statements about resorting to heavy handed effort to fix things wouldn't be fucking tragic.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

adrianN 9y ago

Some people don't like being secularized and might start shooting if you try too hard.

Filligree 9y ago
That's a problem, for sure. Ideally you do this slowly enough that no-one gets very upset, but... What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? If you push heavily then people on all sides get upset, but if you don't then you're overlooking suffering. It doesn't get any less real just because it's far away.
- meric 9y ago
  > What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? What do you do about a country where greed, lust, power permeates their entire leadership, leading to gross economic, social and emotional inequality within the country, willingness to express unchecked interference in others, an unsubstantiated belief in their own cultural superiority, and along with all other manifestations of the absolute lack of modesty in all layers of society, through all behaviours? You try to get out of the way, as far as possible, mentally, emotionally, socially, physically and hope they shoot themselves on the foot enough by the time they arrive they can't muck you up. You may have gotten far away, but it doesn't get any less real. Keep going, for they are chasing you, hunting you down.
mamcx 9y ago
The secularized are the ones that start the wars, topple governments, build better killer weapons, train future-terrorists, profit more from war, dominate in war expending, do the invading, etc.

nothrabannosir 9y ago

> Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones I see what you mean, but careful with that :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#United_States_role https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... not to mention Iraq When you start mixing "middle east" and interference of any kind in a sentence, no matter how benign, it's an extremely sensitive topic. The west has blood on its hands there. You could even argue that IS is a result of western influence in the middle east. I know you said "ideals", which is technically different. But at this point, it warrants at least a footnote.

zxcmx 9y ago
I sometimes forget the HN audience doesn't have all this context. You're totally right. Thanks.

michaelmior 9y ago

> Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones I'm not convinced that "Western" ideals are always what should be spreading. More importantly, phrasing this way implicitly gives the West the moral high ground which is unfortunately not always deserved.

pluma 9y ago
It's not so much that Western ideals aren't morally superior, it's more that Westerns often suck at implementing and sticking to those ideals (hence why we call them "ideals" and not "standard operating procedures").

meric 9y ago

Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones; push the world closer to being a cultural monoculture. As an eastern man with an eastern wife, that sounds incredibly evil. How about you do what you do and we do what we do.

Filligree 9y ago
We may not be talking about the same thing. I'm talking about ideals like... - Don't treat women like chattel. - In general, consider all people to be equally valuable. - Trust the people you meet. Be able to trust them. Don't abuse the trust. (This means not needing regulations and inspections of everything.) - Follow the rules, follow the spirit as well as letter of contracts, and don't attempt to twist every role into benefiting yourself or your tribe. ("Don't be corrupt.") - If, following the rules of society, you fail -- don't step outside the rules in order to win. If these ideals sound incredibly generic and universal, then congratulations, you've already been infected. For the majority of human history, and in large parts of the world, they are in no way common. There are even parts of Europe which break some or all of these. Notice that I didn't say "Push western culture", though I wouldn't be sad if that were to naturally spread. It's only the specific cultural innovations that allow us to get along with each other that I care about. -- Anyone who breaks the latter half of that set, I'll be upset and annoyed at them, and will be disinclined to trade. I certainly won't want them in my country. Anyone who breaks the top half... well, if they're removing the agency of half their population then I'd feel fine about removing theirs. That's grounds for heavy-handed efforts. -- Actually, "western culture" may be a misnomer. There was such a thing; it involved maypole dances, mjød, burning witches and constant warfare. It wasn't necessarily nice, and it isn't what we're doing now. What's been happening could be more suitably termed "universal culture", as it is -- for better or worse -- closer to being highly optimized culture, rather than historically-based. (Optimized for what? Not necessarily our good; cola is incredibly tasty, but I avoid it in all cases.) Someone else already explained this better than me: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/
- maxerickson 9y ago
  - Trust the people you meet. Be able to trust them. Don't abuse the trust. (This means not needing regulations and inspections of everything.) - Follow the rules, follow the spirit as well as letter of contracts, and don't attempt to twist every role into benefiting yourself or your tribe. ("Don't be corrupt.") The fun thing is that the same people that are enthusiastic for military adventurism are the ones that are also grinding those values to dust. I guess if Abu Ghraib hadn't happened, in the context of a war that was rushed into for wrong reasons, your statements about resorting to heavy handed effort to fix things wouldn't be fucking tragic.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]