7 ms·

Is it so different if you fire the guns yoursef? Is the experience more "authentic" if you are in the warzone? Are we in a world where we need artisanal, hand

by zxcmx 9y ago

Is it so different if you fire the guns yoursef? Is the experience more "authentic" if you are in the warzone? Are we in a world where we need artisanal, hand-fought wars? I know exactly what you mean though :( But the problem is war itself. Humans are humans, but we need to resist war on every level we contribute to it, no matter how remote. This might mean not contributing to organisations we otherwise support.

adamjc 9y ago
> Is it so different if you fire the guns yoursef? Yes, it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
- zxcmx 9y ago
  How about I respond with: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-problem-variations https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-pro... The world is not utilitarianism. [edit] on reflection you might have been agreeing with me but I still think the trolley problem answer is trite.
adrianN 9y ago
It seems to me that sometimes the best way to resist is to fight. How would you deal with groups like IS without killing people?
- Filligree 9y ago
  For groups like it, the only fix would be to not create it to begin with. That is to say, it's the usual--improve the economy, secularize the world, prevent people from feeling desperate enough that forming such groups feels like a good idea. Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones; push the world closer to being a cultural monoculture. It's worth doing, but in the meantime, you have to fight them when they pop up. There'll be lash-back to any attempt at doing this, too.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    Some people don't like being secularized and might start shooting if you try too hard.
    - Filligree 9y ago
      That's a problem, for sure. Ideally you do this slowly enough that no-one gets very upset, but... What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? If you push heavily then people on all sides get upset, but if you don't then you're overlooking suffering. It doesn't get any less real just because it's far away.
      - meric 9y ago
        > What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? What do you do about a country where greed, lust, power permeates their entire leadership, leading to gross economic, social and emotional inequality within the country, willingness to express unchecked interference in others, an unsubstantiated belief in their own cultural superiority, and along with all other manifestations of the absolute lack of modesty in all layers of society, through all behaviours? You try to get out of the way, as far as possible, mentally, emotionally, socially, physically and hope they shoot themselves on the foot enough by the time they arrive they can't muck you up. You may have gotten far away, but it doesn't get any less real. Keep going, for they are chasing you, hunting you down.
    - mamcx 9y ago
      The secularized are the ones that start the wars, topple governments, build better killer weapons, train future-terrorists, profit more from war, dominate in war expending, do the invading, etc.
  - nothrabannosir 9y ago
    > Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones I see what you mean, but careful with that :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#United_States_role https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... not to mention Iraq When you start mixing "middle east" and interference of any kind in a sentence, no matter how benign, it's an extremely sensitive topic. The west has blood on its hands there. You could even argue that IS is a result of western influence in the middle east. I know you said "ideals", which is technically different. But at this point, it warrants at least a footnote.
- zxcmx 9y ago
  By defending people. This doesn't mean murdering people remotely with robots. I get that's the most efficient way of doing it. The US is looking at backlash and wondering why: it's because you lost the moral fscking high ground. That's always how the war was won and missiles from the sky dont achieve that mission. Or by not giving a sh$t and just arming them which is the usual crappy way this game is played.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    > it's because you lost the moral fscking high ground. Exactly. Considering the current and projected supply of oil in the world, I'd like someone to explain why we are still over meddling in their affairs at all. Or has this now become a "humanitarian" mission? Declare victory and withdraw I say.
  - cinquemb 9y ago
    >That's always how the war was won and missiles from the sky dont achieve that mission. Well, outside of total war à la scorched-earth, which to your point, this is not, though I suspect some wish it were the case (though the profiteers like the keep arming them game since that provides profits into perpetuity).
- ljf 9y ago
  By looking at and understanding the people who are fighting and those supporting them, and working on the injustices or perceived injustices before they escalate. I highly recommend Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis for more detail on the intricate web of events that led us here. I'm not saying that I support IS or even make light of IS/AQ/the Taliban etc. etc. but it is worth understanding what leads to these groups and why people support them
  - harshreality 9y ago
    ... and when they don't want to hear your solutions to injustices, put you in a cage, and burn you alive... what then? Supposing you sit down with them for a month, and convince them of your world view and your solution to an injustice, and they agree, and then you go back to your respective lives. Their culture is going to exert pressures that make them want to rip up their agreement because it makes no sense in their everyday social and political environment. They don't maintain the frame of mind that enabled the agreement. How do you propose to deal with that?
    - mistermann 9y ago
      Withdraw and let their societies collapse upon themselves?
      - harshreality 9y ago
        Sounds great. Isn't that what we tried to do with the Korean War armistice? How's that working out? Is North Korea collapsing yet?
        mistermann 9y ago
        It's not exactly thriving.
      - golergka 9y ago
        Do you want to get ISIS? Because that's how you get ISIS.
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celticninja 9y ago
You can leave the warzone and then perhaps avoid the desert (if that's where your theatre of operations was) for the rest of your time. If all your killing was done from an air conditioned office sitting at a desk that's more difficult to avoid for the rest of your life. Even the town you live/work in could become part of the problem.
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by zxcmx 9y ago

adamjc 9y ago

> Is it so different if you fire the guns yoursef? Yes, it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

zxcmx 9y ago
How about I respond with: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-problem-variations https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/lesser-known-trolley-pro... The world is not utilitarianism. [edit] on reflection you might have been agreeing with me but I still think the trolley problem answer is trite.

adrianN 9y ago

It seems to me that sometimes the best way to resist is to fight. How would you deal with groups like IS without killing people?

Filligree 9y ago
For groups like it, the only fix would be to not create it to begin with. That is to say, it's the usual--improve the economy, secularize the world, prevent people from feeling desperate enough that forming such groups feels like a good idea. Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones; push the world closer to being a cultural monoculture. It's worth doing, but in the meantime, you have to fight them when they pop up. There'll be lash-back to any attempt at doing this, too.
- adrianN 9y ago
  Some people don't like being secularized and might start shooting if you try too hard.
  - Filligree 9y ago
    That's a problem, for sure. Ideally you do this slowly enough that no-one gets very upset, but... What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? If you push heavily then people on all sides get upset, but if you don't then you're overlooking suffering. It doesn't get any less real just because it's far away.
    - meric 9y ago
      > What do you do about a country that treats women like chattel? What do you do about a country where greed, lust, power permeates their entire leadership, leading to gross economic, social and emotional inequality within the country, willingness to express unchecked interference in others, an unsubstantiated belief in their own cultural superiority, and along with all other manifestations of the absolute lack of modesty in all layers of society, through all behaviours? You try to get out of the way, as far as possible, mentally, emotionally, socially, physically and hope they shoot themselves on the foot enough by the time they arrive they can't muck you up. You may have gotten far away, but it doesn't get any less real. Keep going, for they are chasing you, hunting you down.
  - mamcx 9y ago
    The secularized are the ones that start the wars, topple governments, build better killer weapons, train future-terrorists, profit more from war, dominate in war expending, do the invading, etc.
- nothrabannosir 9y ago
  > Some of it is about ideals, so spread Western ones I see what you mean, but careful with that :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#United_States_role https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta... not to mention Iraq When you start mixing "middle east" and interference of any kind in a sentence, no matter how benign, it's an extremely sensitive topic. The west has blood on its hands there. You could even argue that IS is a result of western influence in the middle east. I know you said "ideals", which is technically different. But at this point, it warrants at least a footnote.
zxcmx 9y ago
By defending people. This doesn't mean murdering people remotely with robots. I get that's the most efficient way of doing it. The US is looking at backlash and wondering why: it's because you lost the moral fscking high ground. That's always how the war was won and missiles from the sky dont achieve that mission. Or by not giving a sh$t and just arming them which is the usual crappy way this game is played.
- mistermann 9y ago
  > it's because you lost the moral fscking high ground. Exactly. Considering the current and projected supply of oil in the world, I'd like someone to explain why we are still over meddling in their affairs at all. Or has this now become a "humanitarian" mission? Declare victory and withdraw I say.
- cinquemb 9y ago
  >That's always how the war was won and missiles from the sky dont achieve that mission. Well, outside of total war à la scorched-earth, which to your point, this is not, though I suspect some wish it were the case (though the profiteers like the keep arming them game since that provides profits into perpetuity).
ljf 9y ago
By looking at and understanding the people who are fighting and those supporting them, and working on the injustices or perceived injustices before they escalate. I highly recommend Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis for more detail on the intricate web of events that led us here. I'm not saying that I support IS or even make light of IS/AQ/the Taliban etc. etc. but it is worth understanding what leads to these groups and why people support them
- harshreality 9y ago
  ... and when they don't want to hear your solutions to injustices, put you in a cage, and burn you alive... what then? Supposing you sit down with them for a month, and convince them of your world view and your solution to an injustice, and they agree, and then you go back to your respective lives. Their culture is going to exert pressures that make them want to rip up their agreement because it makes no sense in their everyday social and political environment. They don't maintain the frame of mind that enabled the agreement. How do you propose to deal with that?
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Withdraw and let their societies collapse upon themselves?
    - harshreality 9y ago
      Sounds great. Isn't that what we tried to do with the Korean War armistice? How's that working out? Is North Korea collapsing yet?
      - mistermann 9y ago
        It's not exactly thriving.
    - golergka 9y ago
      Do you want to get ISIS? Because that's how you get ISIS.
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celticninja 9y ago

You can leave the warzone and then perhaps avoid the desert (if that's where your theatre of operations was) for the rest of your time. If all your killing was done from an air conditioned office sitting at a desk that's more difficult to avoid for the rest of your life. Even the town you live/work in could become part of the problem.

deleted 9y ago

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