5 ms·

> It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an assho

by phil21 9y ago

> It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. > I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, and my advice is given as direct experience from my own life as the "victim" of my mental health being known professionally. I re-read my comment, and absolutely nothing about it was dismissive or implied to "think positively" as you imply. If I could go back in time I'd never tell anyone I was severely depressed. It is not a good career move, no matter how much you wish that not to be the case. It's absolutely downright dangerous to think anyone actually cares about you in this aspect of your career. > You're further warning them that if they do treat it their career is over and they should avoid that? You're being awful. Didn't say that at all. I said make sure it's not known you received said treatment, as your career in many managerial/executive fields is now over. Again, you can hate that statement all you want - but I'm telling a truth from my personal experience. I made no illusions as to me wanting this to be the case? Where did you get that? My point is thus: If you are known in executive circles in your industry to have had past mental health issues, your career is going to be severely impacted. Do you disagree with that statement? You don't have to want that to be the case, but you sure as hell need to know the game you are playing before you begin.

KirinDave 9y ago
> I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. I care. > Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what you're saying is that a medical condition is an objective and valid thing to discriminate upon. There is a somewhat obscure word for this: "ableism." > I said make sure it's not known you received said treatment, as your career in many managerial/executive fields is now over. Again, you can hate that statement all you want - but I'm telling a truth from my personal experience. I made no illusions as to me wanting this to be the case? Where did you get that? Stop being a willing tool of people that want to make this so. What you're describing is not "the way things are." It's "the way you're helping to make them." We are this industry now. We can remake it as we see fit.
- phil21 9y ago
  > I care. Point taken :) I will rephrase as: The vast majority of your co-workers could care less why you're being an asshole to them, if it's a sustained problem. > I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what you're saying is that a medical condition is an objective and valid thing to discriminate upon. There is a somewhat obscure word for this: "ableism." So your position is that you can act any way you like to your co-workers at work, undermine entire projects with your negativity, cause morale issues for other staff, and if you happen to have a medical condition to explain all that your employer just has to deal? Having been that guy, fuck that. I deserved to be fired and re-evaluate my life, medical condition or no medical condition. I don't think the world works that way, and I honestly don't think I'd like it to. Not everything needs to pander to someone with a problem - and I say that as someone with problems I don't want anyone pandering to. The workplace should be as much of a meritocracy as possible. There is a reason the words "reasonable accommodation" are used in this context. We could argue all day on what reasonable is, but even the courts understand you need the base ability to do the job regardless of your disability. > Stop being a willing tool of people that want to make this so. What you're describing is not "the way things are." It's "the way you're helping to make them." We are this industry now. We can remake it as we see fit. This is a decent point. But unfortunately I am not in a position of power in the industry to affect change, and at this point my career would be harmed if I tried to take the moral high ground. I will absolutely say this would be a personal failing of mine - I'm not willing to be the one sacrificed for the greater good here, and that is certainly part of why this problem exists. I shouldn't have opened my mouth on the topic, and I certainly already regret it. It's far too emotional and nuanced of an issue to really discuss in an open forum on the Internet, and there are certainly personal things I'm sure we'd enjoy discussing in detail. Cheers!
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > So your position is that you can act any way you like to your co-workers at work, undermine entire projects with your negativity, cause morale issues for other staff, and if you happen to have a medical condition to explain all that your employer just has to deal? Having been that guy, fuck that. I deserved to be fired and re-evaluate my life, medical condition or no medical condition. No. That is not my position. Let's reframe this around a physical problem to remove our inbuilt stigma based around centuries of dualism. If you had carpal tunnel and needed to take a week off or maybe schedule regular physical therapy this would be normal and fine. Someone might say, "Can you work on this right now?" and you might say, "I'm sorry, I'm not capable right now, I have a disability and I need to deal with it or it will get worse." It is ludicrous to say, "Why are you so negative? Your refusal to work impacts the team badly. You're fired." No one bats an eye at this because physical pain of this type is not stigmatized in the US. Despite a very similar kind of long-term treatment and slow realization of these conditions, one is normal to support and the other has you begging to be fired for negativity and shaming yourself in pubic for having dealt with it. Your position is that it's okay to abandon people if they have problems you're not comfortable talking about. > I don't think the world works that way, and I honestly don't think I'd like it to. Not everything needs to pander to someone with a problem - and I say that as someone with problems I don't want anyone pandering to. The workplace should be as much of a meritocracy as possible. Making basic affordances (like offering disability time) for people with mental health illnesses is no different from making time for folks to deal with a sudden infection, heart issues, etc. It's a health problem. It's one that can lead to someone leaving their job, but doesn't always. Please, stop stigmatizing mental health illnesses. > I shouldn't have opened my mouth on the topic, and I certainly already regret it… I've got to tell you, if this is actually reflecting hiring practices you've helped engage in then you should not talk about it as this is a pretty significant violation of the ADA you're justifying. This behavior isn't just immoral and unfair, it's illegal. I'm sorry if you feel pressured or uncomfortable about this. I truly am. But you're actively promoting unfair treatment of people based on health issues that they almost certainly did not try to acquire, but are very often treatable! The pressure you're applying to others here is part of why MHIs run rampant through out industry. It sounds like you yourself suffer at the hands of this stigma. It's difficult, but we all need to start pushing back against it. It's not the moral high ground, it's everyone's legal obligation. Not following these rules leads to incredibly costly (and qf justified) discrimination lawsuits that can and should crush startups that dare violate them.

by phil21 9y ago

KirinDave 9y ago

> I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. I care. > Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what you're saying is that a medical condition is an objective and valid thing to discriminate upon. There is a somewhat obscure word for this: "ableism." > I said make sure it's not known you received said treatment, as your career in many managerial/executive fields is now over. Again, you can hate that statement all you want - but I'm telling a truth from my personal experience. I made no illusions as to me wanting this to be the case? Where did you get that? Stop being a willing tool of people that want to make this so. What you're describing is not "the way things are." It's "the way you're helping to make them." We are this industry now. We can remake it as we see fit.

phil21 9y ago
> I care. Point taken :) I will rephrase as: The vast majority of your co-workers could care less why you're being an asshole to them, if it's a sustained problem. > I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what you're saying is that a medical condition is an objective and valid thing to discriminate upon. There is a somewhat obscure word for this: "ableism." So your position is that you can act any way you like to your co-workers at work, undermine entire projects with your negativity, cause morale issues for other staff, and if you happen to have a medical condition to explain all that your employer just has to deal? Having been that guy, fuck that. I deserved to be fired and re-evaluate my life, medical condition or no medical condition. I don't think the world works that way, and I honestly don't think I'd like it to. Not everything needs to pander to someone with a problem - and I say that as someone with problems I don't want anyone pandering to. The workplace should be as much of a meritocracy as possible. There is a reason the words "reasonable accommodation" are used in this context. We could argue all day on what reasonable is, but even the courts understand you need the base ability to do the job regardless of your disability. > Stop being a willing tool of people that want to make this so. What you're describing is not "the way things are." It's "the way you're helping to make them." We are this industry now. We can remake it as we see fit. This is a decent point. But unfortunately I am not in a position of power in the industry to affect change, and at this point my career would be harmed if I tried to take the moral high ground. I will absolutely say this would be a personal failing of mine - I'm not willing to be the one sacrificed for the greater good here, and that is certainly part of why this problem exists. I shouldn't have opened my mouth on the topic, and I certainly already regret it. It's far too emotional and nuanced of an issue to really discuss in an open forum on the Internet, and there are certainly personal things I'm sure we'd enjoy discussing in detail. Cheers!
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > So your position is that you can act any way you like to your co-workers at work, undermine entire projects with your negativity, cause morale issues for other staff, and if you happen to have a medical condition to explain all that your employer just has to deal? Having been that guy, fuck that. I deserved to be fired and re-evaluate my life, medical condition or no medical condition. No. That is not my position. Let's reframe this around a physical problem to remove our inbuilt stigma based around centuries of dualism. If you had carpal tunnel and needed to take a week off or maybe schedule regular physical therapy this would be normal and fine. Someone might say, "Can you work on this right now?" and you might say, "I'm sorry, I'm not capable right now, I have a disability and I need to deal with it or it will get worse." It is ludicrous to say, "Why are you so negative? Your refusal to work impacts the team badly. You're fired." No one bats an eye at this because physical pain of this type is not stigmatized in the US. Despite a very similar kind of long-term treatment and slow realization of these conditions, one is normal to support and the other has you begging to be fired for negativity and shaming yourself in pubic for having dealt with it. Your position is that it's okay to abandon people if they have problems you're not comfortable talking about. > I don't think the world works that way, and I honestly don't think I'd like it to. Not everything needs to pander to someone with a problem - and I say that as someone with problems I don't want anyone pandering to. The workplace should be as much of a meritocracy as possible. Making basic affordances (like offering disability time) for people with mental health illnesses is no different from making time for folks to deal with a sudden infection, heart issues, etc. It's a health problem. It's one that can lead to someone leaving their job, but doesn't always. Please, stop stigmatizing mental health illnesses. > I shouldn't have opened my mouth on the topic, and I certainly already regret it… I've got to tell you, if this is actually reflecting hiring practices you've helped engage in then you should not talk about it as this is a pretty significant violation of the ADA you're justifying. This behavior isn't just immoral and unfair, it's illegal. I'm sorry if you feel pressured or uncomfortable about this. I truly am. But you're actively promoting unfair treatment of people based on health issues that they almost certainly did not try to acquire, but are very often treatable! The pressure you're applying to others here is part of why MHIs run rampant through out industry. It sounds like you yourself suffer at the hands of this stigma. It's difficult, but we all need to start pushing back against it. It's not the moral high ground, it's everyone's legal obligation. Not following these rules leads to incredibly costly (and qf justified) discrimination lawsuits that can and should crush startups that dare violate them.