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Learning programming has gotten easier(for the better), because of better tools(finding bugs, debugging etc), better resources(you can google almost any beginne

by xfer 9y ago

Learning programming has gotten easier(for the better), because of better tools(finding bugs, debugging etc), better resources(you can google almost any beginner questions and very high probability, you find your solution). However, over the years problems we solve have been way bigger. But if you can solve these problems, then learning the programming aspect of it has actually been easier and better than in the past.

wvenable 9y ago
I agree. But the sheer volume of technologies, requirements, and tools makes it a net loss in my opinion. I just recently built my first Android application and even with years of cross platform development experience it was still daunting. Thanks to all the available online resources, I built my application without actually learning how anything really works. So I finished an app, it works, but I still don't consider myself an Android developer. I feel a lot applications are built this way. Maybe building toy application has gotten significantly easier but actually building a useful application on an active platform is much more daunting. And really debugging a desktop application 20 years ago wasn't much different than it is now. But now I have to connect through emulators, browsers, etc. There's so much more crap in the way.
- keithnz 9y ago
  how's it a net loss? you said you recently went from zero to a deployed android app? you got software working on a platform you don't even understand fully and have it published to a network of millions and millions of people? How is that not EASY? That wasn't even possible not so long ago.
  - wvenable 9y ago
    Was it easier than building a Windows app in Visual Basic in the 90's? No, it wasn't. But you make a good point. But it wasn't easier because the tooling was better (it wasn't) or the debugging was better (it wasn't) or the whole ecosystem makes more sense (it doesn't). It was easier because I could google for every problem, error message, code snippet, or issue. And that Googling was absolutely necessary. What's interesting is that I really didn't learn much. Without any access to the Internet I couldn't reproduce it. I think the conclusion isn't that programming is easier, it's that the Internet is awesome. The Internet makes everything easier -- cooking, car repairs, home renovations, physics, chemistry, etc. Software development is a bit harder.
    - xfer 9y ago
      No, it isn't just because of the internet. You can download all the docs and source, and you can learn it in as much detail as you want. Googling was necessary because you were a beginner. And the tooling has gotten better, without them you wouldn't be able to debug, test your android app without ever owning a phone. This applies to other fields as well. The thing where internet does help is participating in discussions, whether you are a beginner/expert.
      - wvenable 9y ago
        > You can download all the docs and source, and you can learn it in as much detail as you want. That doesn't mean the technology is easier that just means the reference material is more accessible. In fact, I'd argue that in a lot of cases the technology is harder and therefore more reference material, stack overflow answers, and source code reading is necessary. > Googling was necessary because you were a beginner. Of course. But many of the answers I found were sort of black magic. The Android project layout is at least 5 times more complicated than it should be. And even many of the answers were not that old and already out of date. I definitely felt that many of the issues I encountered could not have been just figured out my own. When getting your developer tools and documentation required a CD there was a lot more care put into everything. It feels these days that everything is built on an ever shifting house of cards.

by xfer 9y ago

wvenable 9y ago

I agree. But the sheer volume of technologies, requirements, and tools makes it a net loss in my opinion. I just recently built my first Android application and even with years of cross platform development experience it was still daunting. Thanks to all the available online resources, I built my application without actually learning how anything really works. So I finished an app, it works, but I still don't consider myself an Android developer. I feel a lot applications are built this way. Maybe building toy application has gotten significantly easier but actually building a useful application on an active platform is much more daunting. And really debugging a desktop application 20 years ago wasn't much different than it is now. But now I have to connect through emulators, browsers, etc. There's so much more crap in the way.

keithnz 9y ago
how's it a net loss? you said you recently went from zero to a deployed android app? you got software working on a platform you don't even understand fully and have it published to a network of millions and millions of people? How is that not EASY? That wasn't even possible not so long ago.
- wvenable 9y ago
  Was it easier than building a Windows app in Visual Basic in the 90's? No, it wasn't. But you make a good point. But it wasn't easier because the tooling was better (it wasn't) or the debugging was better (it wasn't) or the whole ecosystem makes more sense (it doesn't). It was easier because I could google for every problem, error message, code snippet, or issue. And that Googling was absolutely necessary. What's interesting is that I really didn't learn much. Without any access to the Internet I couldn't reproduce it. I think the conclusion isn't that programming is easier, it's that the Internet is awesome. The Internet makes everything easier -- cooking, car repairs, home renovations, physics, chemistry, etc. Software development is a bit harder.
  - xfer 9y ago
    No, it isn't just because of the internet. You can download all the docs and source, and you can learn it in as much detail as you want. Googling was necessary because you were a beginner. And the tooling has gotten better, without them you wouldn't be able to debug, test your android app without ever owning a phone. This applies to other fields as well. The thing where internet does help is participating in discussions, whether you are a beginner/expert.
    - wvenable 9y ago
      > You can download all the docs and source, and you can learn it in as much detail as you want. That doesn't mean the technology is easier that just means the reference material is more accessible. In fact, I'd argue that in a lot of cases the technology is harder and therefore more reference material, stack overflow answers, and source code reading is necessary. > Googling was necessary because you were a beginner. Of course. But many of the answers I found were sort of black magic. The Android project layout is at least 5 times more complicated than it should be. And even many of the answers were not that old and already out of date. I definitely felt that many of the issues I encountered could not have been just figured out my own. When getting your developer tools and documentation required a CD there was a lot more care put into everything. It feels these days that everything is built on an ever shifting house of cards.