4 ms·

How college workers use loophole to boost pay

24 points by cwan 16y ago

jacktasia 16y ago
Hrm, "workers" seems like the wrong word here. They're basically executives (going by their titles). Also, I work at a university and my pay hasn't changed for three years...probably because of stuff like this.
- ultrasaurus 16y ago
  I suspect this works best in an environment where your responsibilities are murky at best -- it's a bull market in educations, charge whatever you want and enrollment goes up.
gte910h 16y ago
So if they were in a defined contribution plan (as in the "other plan" mentioned in the article), they'd be able to draw on the money in that plan by this point in their lives yet still work. I'm not sure this is even morally questionable. Sure, the state of Washington may have underfunded their retirement plan, but that's poor planning, not necessarily these guys' problem. Couple this with the fact their defined contribution plan didn't exist for most of these people when hired, I really don't see that this is a moral problem. Sure, the state may wish to change the law to make it harder to do, but that's just changing the law to make it easier to fund the pension, it's not a morality issue.
spoiledtechie 16y ago
Double Dipping is a menace on tax payer dollars as well. The same thing happens with Fire departments, Police Departments, Elected and City workers. Its a complete mess and a huge waste on tax payer dollars. You would be UTTERLY surprised how much of YOUR money goes into schemes like this. We are not talking small dollars here either. For every Firefighter that does this, we are talking over $200k over the course of the life of the pension. Now multiply that by how many people that actually do this in one city. And its not just the cities. Its the Counties and state officials as well. Its a horrible thing they do, but they get away with it because there are no local checks and balances. People(citizens) just don't care... And don't think that this doesn't happen in your city or your county. It happens EVERYWHERE.
- allenp 16y ago
  What's the difference between retiring and taking a job elsewhere and retiring and taking the same job? If these people want to keep working to make additional money on top of their pension payout that is their choice. The bottom line is that the pension draw is going to happen after they've been working for 30 years. The only scheming I see is the possibility of circumventing state mandated hiring practices to not have to compete for their old jobs back. What is really broken, in my opinion, isn't the double-dipping as much as the system that makes double-dipping a drain on the public good. If instead of a pension the money was drawn from a 401k would we have the same feelings against this behavior? Edit: Tried to clarify/stay focused.
  - spoiledtechie 16y ago
    Its not just the old jobs back. They do this because they know its possible and allowed. Lets say your out in the work force. Work for 20 years and decide to retire. You don't get your pension until you turn 65 in the U.S. These double dippers start their pension right away. So they are collecting on the pension while they get rehired. Government pension usually does not stop paying out when you decide to go back to work in your mid 40's. They pay you even if you took the same exact job back. So not only is a official getting paid their current salary, they are also getting paid their pension on top of that and they are only 40. When they go another 20 years and retire, their pension doubles. And if they are alive for the next 40 years after, we as tax payers are paying double their salary. Its immoral.
    - bphogan 16y ago
      With the exception of these higher-level executive positions, the state gets workers on the cheap for those 20 years. My student interns graduate making 1.5 to 2x what I make per year. Seriously, are you gonna do Oracle DBA duties for $50k a year at a university or $100k a year in industry? Taxpayers don't want to pay high state salaries, even though they end up doing so with the pensions. And I'm one of those burdened taxpayers too. I have to pay state taxes at my state job :) So I literally pay part of my own salary. I choose to work here for lower pay. But I have a great job that I love. There's no better reward than teaching people to program. Not everyone's in that same boat. And I won't lie - if the opportunity presented itself for me to retire, keep my pension, and come back to work, I don't think I'd feel too bad about it. Can you honestly say you wouldn't do the same?
powrtoch 16y ago
I was hoping "loophole" was a new programming language I could start learning.
- chronomex 16y ago
  And I was thinking "college workers" meant student employees. I admit that I was looking for a way to boost my own income ...
ja27 16y ago
This happens all the time at my alma mater. It's very frustrating to see almost one third of the tenured faculty positions in a department held by guys that retired years ago while new PhD grads are fighting 100-to-1 odds to get a tenure track job. It really cripples innovation and steers good people out of academia.
yason 16y ago
So why are they getting this pension before they're 65 (or whatever the retirement age is there) in the first place?

24 points by cwan 16y ago

Hrm, "workers" seems like the wrong word here. They're basically executives (going by their titles). Also, I work at a university and my pay hasn't changed for three years...probably because of stuff like this.

ultrasaurus 16y ago
I suspect this works best in an environment where your responsibilities are murky at best -- it's a bull market in educations, charge whatever you want and enrollment goes up.

gte910h 16y ago

So if they were in a defined contribution plan (as in the "other plan" mentioned in the article), they'd be able to draw on the money in that plan by this point in their lives yet still work. I'm not sure this is even morally questionable. Sure, the state of Washington may have underfunded their retirement plan, but that's poor planning, not necessarily these guys' problem. Couple this with the fact their defined contribution plan didn't exist for most of these people when hired, I really don't see that this is a moral problem. Sure, the state may wish to change the law to make it harder to do, but that's just changing the law to make it easier to fund the pension, it's not a morality issue.

spoiledtechie 16y ago

Double Dipping is a menace on tax payer dollars as well. The same thing happens with Fire departments, Police Departments, Elected and City workers. Its a complete mess and a huge waste on tax payer dollars. You would be UTTERLY surprised how much of YOUR money goes into schemes like this. We are not talking small dollars here either. For every Firefighter that does this, we are talking over $200k over the course of the life of the pension. Now multiply that by how many people that actually do this in one city. And its not just the cities. Its the Counties and state officials as well. Its a horrible thing they do, but they get away with it because there are no local checks and balances. People(citizens) just don't care... And don't think that this doesn't happen in your city or your county. It happens EVERYWHERE.

allenp 16y ago
What's the difference between retiring and taking a job elsewhere and retiring and taking the same job? If these people want to keep working to make additional money on top of their pension payout that is their choice. The bottom line is that the pension draw is going to happen after they've been working for 30 years. The only scheming I see is the possibility of circumventing state mandated hiring practices to not have to compete for their old jobs back. What is really broken, in my opinion, isn't the double-dipping as much as the system that makes double-dipping a drain on the public good. If instead of a pension the money was drawn from a 401k would we have the same feelings against this behavior? Edit: Tried to clarify/stay focused.
- spoiledtechie 16y ago
  Its not just the old jobs back. They do this because they know its possible and allowed. Lets say your out in the work force. Work for 20 years and decide to retire. You don't get your pension until you turn 65 in the U.S. These double dippers start their pension right away. So they are collecting on the pension while they get rehired. Government pension usually does not stop paying out when you decide to go back to work in your mid 40's. They pay you even if you took the same exact job back. So not only is a official getting paid their current salary, they are also getting paid their pension on top of that and they are only 40. When they go another 20 years and retire, their pension doubles. And if they are alive for the next 40 years after, we as tax payers are paying double their salary. Its immoral.
  - bphogan 16y ago
    With the exception of these higher-level executive positions, the state gets workers on the cheap for those 20 years. My student interns graduate making 1.5 to 2x what I make per year. Seriously, are you gonna do Oracle DBA duties for $50k a year at a university or $100k a year in industry? Taxpayers don't want to pay high state salaries, even though they end up doing so with the pensions. And I'm one of those burdened taxpayers too. I have to pay state taxes at my state job :) So I literally pay part of my own salary. I choose to work here for lower pay. But I have a great job that I love. There's no better reward than teaching people to program. Not everyone's in that same boat. And I won't lie - if the opportunity presented itself for me to retire, keep my pension, and come back to work, I don't think I'd feel too bad about it. Can you honestly say you wouldn't do the same?

powrtoch 16y ago

I was hoping "loophole" was a new programming language I could start learning.

chronomex 16y ago
And I was thinking "college workers" meant student employees. I admit that I was looking for a way to boost my own income ...

ja27 16y ago

This happens all the time at my alma mater. It's very frustrating to see almost one third of the tenured faculty positions in a department held by guys that retired years ago while new PhD grads are fighting 100-to-1 odds to get a tenure track job. It really cripples innovation and steers good people out of academia.

yason 16y ago

So why are they getting this pension before they're 65 (or whatever the retirement age is there) in the first place?