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Not that long ago, I was considering joining a startup where an old manager of mine was the head of eng. They seemed to be doing some cool stuff, another friend

Not that long ago, I was considering joining a startup where an old manager of mine was the head of eng. They seemed to be doing some cool stuff, another friend had recently joined and spoke well of it, and I thought I'd give it a go. As part of that process, my old manager took me out for coffee to talk about the company, etc. When we chatted, he basically laid down that he was concerned- when I had worked for him, I'd been depressed. He wanted to protect his startup from that kind of attitude. So there I was jumping through hoops to assure him that I had gotten therapy, that I was keeping an eye on it, on and on... only afterwards did I realize how fucked up that was. Yes, he's got a right to try to protect a fragile young startup. But on the other hand, he's doing it via discrimination due to health issues. In the end, I also realized something else that mattered: I was always feeling like shit those days that I worked for him in large part because of how he ran things. After he left, we got a much better manager who honestly seemed to work hard to make me happy. Why the hell would I want to go work for that guy again in the first place?

phil21 9y ago
This is where it gets tricky. Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? And is that even material to the decision to hire you or not? No one really cares why you act like that, they simply care that you do. I'm going to say it's entirely on you to present yourself in a positive light at work, and I honestly think your ex-manager was doing you a solid there. The typical way this plays out is your mental condition (or possibility of one) gets discussed by management behind closed doors and you never know why you didn't receive that offer or promotion. And yes, based on my limited experience with larger companies this is exceedingly common at the executive level. The one thing you don't want on your "record" is a history of mental health issues - there is no recovery to your (management) career once that is known. In your case I think you simply had the curtain pulled back a little, out of consideration from your past manager. Your other points stand though.
- throwaway2928 9y ago
  > Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? I'm always unsure. These days, I'm generally a pretty positive guy but I know I've struggled in the past. On this particular team I was definitely not the biggest asshole. In fact, after this manager left, the biggest asshole was fired pretty much based on the fact that the new managers weren't willing to tolerate his attitude. The bro culture of the team was curtailed (which is why I was so much happier on it afterwards). It's very hard to be a manager, a people leader. I don't think he was wrong to bring up the fact - he was doing it because he wanted to protect his company - but it certainly danced around a line of legality. After I withdrew my application he made sure to tell friends of mine that he had rejected me because of my depression. Really mature, that guy is.
  - phil21 9y ago
    > Really mature, that guy is. This is really the only issue I have. Maybe your manager sucked, I don't know. But this specific story is absolutely the opposite. He put himself out on the line (as you say) and was honest with you. Typical folks would simply not talk to you whatsoever, but have the same reasoning. Maybe I'm strange, but I'd far prefer the latter. Story time. My best hire I've made was an employee with a speech impediment. This job was for a night shift as a sysadmin/support role, and that required answering the phones at 2am when customers called. Customers don't call at 2am to have a friendly chat - so those calls typically were high stress, and it really caused his speech to falter quite a bit. I could have easily simply bounced him on the phone interview, since we were a tiny startup at the time and one wrong hire had the potential to sink us. I had other livelihoods to think of - not just the "legal" situation. So what I did was I asked the guy back for a second informal interview and laid my cards out on the table. He could have gotten up right then, left, and immediately sued me. But he didn't - we had a productive talk about it, and due to that talk (and other self-starting qualities he had shown) he got the job. I've now worked with him for over 10 years, through thick and thin and switching companies. If I had followed your advice here - as the hiring manager I would have simply round-filed the resume due to the potential issues, and went on with my day. I took the risk, and it worked out. I don't believe what I did should have been punishable by death of my company - but it absolutely was if that potential hire had been ethically challenged. I also started the career of someone who was having challenges finding work elsewhere due to "unknown reasons" - aka people seeing his impairment and silently crossing him off the candidate list. Due to the insane legal framework around this stuff, very few companies will take risks like I did any longer.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > This is where it gets tricky. > Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? See, if it's diagnosed depression then it's not tricky all. It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? For people with depression, sometimes "being positive" is "getting out of bed and finding a way to make it through the day" or even simply not taking your own life. Writing a blurb about positive attitude suggests you're dismissive of the issue. I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. You're further warning them that if they do treat it their career is over and they should avoid that? You're being awful.
  - phil21 9y ago
    > It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. > I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, and my advice is given as direct experience from my own life as the "victim" of my mental health being known professionally. I re-read my comment, and absolutely nothing about it was dismissive or implied to "think positively" as you imply. If I could go back in time I'd never tell anyone I was severely depressed. It is not a good career move, no matter how much you wish that not to be the case. It's absolutely downright dangerous to think anyone actually cares about you in this aspect of your career. > You're further warning them that if they do treat it their career is over and they should avoid that? You're being awful. Didn't say that at all. I said make sure it's not known you received said treatment, as your career in many managerial/executive fields is now over. Again, you can hate that statement all you want - but I'm telling a truth from my personal experience. I made no illusions as to me wanting this to be the case? Where did you get that? My point is thus: If you are known in executive circles in your industry to have had past mental health issues, your career is going to be severely impacted. Do you disagree with that statement? You don't have to want that to be the case, but you sure as hell need to know the game you are playing before you begin.
stevenbedrick 9y ago
That sounds like a really great realization to have had! For the record, what your old manager was doing (directly asking you about your mental health status in a quasi-interview setting) was probably illegal, at least in the US (IANAL). There are pretty strict rules around the kinds of things that employers are allowed to ask prospective employees about, and health (mental or otherwise) is very much on the "not allowed" list. Employees have a legal right to protection from discrimination along those lines, and companies (no matter how small) most definitely do _not_ have the right to discriminate in that way.
- lazyasciiart 9y ago
  Not quite. There are laws about why an employer can decide not to hire you, and it is easy to argue that if an employer asked about a protected condition and then decided not to hire you, they did so because of that information - so generally employers try very hard to avoid knowing about protected conditions for a candidate so they can't be accused of discrimination if they don't hire you. (In this case, the manager did more than just ask about it, he pretty much said they would reject him because of the condition, and that bit would be the evidence of illegal behavior).
  - stevenbedrick 9y ago
    Ah, thanks for the clarification- that's a really important point.
- just4themoney 9y ago
  >health (mental or otherwise) is very much on the "not allowed" list This is a gross oversimplification to the point of being untrue. In addition to what the sibling comment said about asking itself not being illegal, you're allowed to discriminate based on health/disability status all you want if the disability prevents an employee from doing a bona fide job requirement and there isn't any "reasonable accommodation" you can provide for that employee. For example - if you're a interviewing/hiring for a job that requires the employee to, say, move heavy boxes all day you're going to need to ask that employee "can you lift and move boxes up to 60 pounds?" and you're going to have to reject candidates that can't due to health conditions. Likewise you may have to reject a candidate who is a bad coder even if he has a learning disability.
Mz 9y ago
I was always feeling like shit those days that I worked for him in large part because of how he ran things. This is an excellent point. It sounds like things are better for you and I am glad of that.

phil21 9y ago

This is where it gets tricky. Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? And is that even material to the decision to hire you or not? No one really cares why you act like that, they simply care that you do. I'm going to say it's entirely on you to present yourself in a positive light at work, and I honestly think your ex-manager was doing you a solid there. The typical way this plays out is your mental condition (or possibility of one) gets discussed by management behind closed doors and you never know why you didn't receive that offer or promotion. And yes, based on my limited experience with larger companies this is exceedingly common at the executive level. The one thing you don't want on your "record" is a history of mental health issues - there is no recovery to your (management) career once that is known. In your case I think you simply had the curtain pulled back a little, out of consideration from your past manager. Your other points stand though.

throwaway2928 9y ago
> Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? I'm always unsure. These days, I'm generally a pretty positive guy but I know I've struggled in the past. On this particular team I was definitely not the biggest asshole. In fact, after this manager left, the biggest asshole was fired pretty much based on the fact that the new managers weren't willing to tolerate his attitude. The bro culture of the team was curtailed (which is why I was so much happier on it afterwards). It's very hard to be a manager, a people leader. I don't think he was wrong to bring up the fact - he was doing it because he wanted to protect his company - but it certainly danced around a line of legality. After I withdrew my application he made sure to tell friends of mine that he had rejected me because of my depression. Really mature, that guy is.
- phil21 9y ago
  > Really mature, that guy is. This is really the only issue I have. Maybe your manager sucked, I don't know. But this specific story is absolutely the opposite. He put himself out on the line (as you say) and was honest with you. Typical folks would simply not talk to you whatsoever, but have the same reasoning. Maybe I'm strange, but I'd far prefer the latter. Story time. My best hire I've made was an employee with a speech impediment. This job was for a night shift as a sysadmin/support role, and that required answering the phones at 2am when customers called. Customers don't call at 2am to have a friendly chat - so those calls typically were high stress, and it really caused his speech to falter quite a bit. I could have easily simply bounced him on the phone interview, since we were a tiny startup at the time and one wrong hire had the potential to sink us. I had other livelihoods to think of - not just the "legal" situation. So what I did was I asked the guy back for a second informal interview and laid my cards out on the table. He could have gotten up right then, left, and immediately sued me. But he didn't - we had a productive talk about it, and due to that talk (and other self-starting qualities he had shown) he got the job. I've now worked with him for over 10 years, through thick and thin and switching companies. If I had followed your advice here - as the hiring manager I would have simply round-filed the resume due to the potential issues, and went on with my day. I took the risk, and it worked out. I don't believe what I did should have been punishable by death of my company - but it absolutely was if that potential hire had been ethically challenged. I also started the career of someone who was having challenges finding work elsewhere due to "unknown reasons" - aka people seeing his impairment and silently crossing him off the candidate list. Due to the insane legal framework around this stuff, very few companies will take risks like I did any longer.
KirinDave 9y ago
> This is where it gets tricky. > Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? See, if it's diagnosed depression then it's not tricky all. It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? For people with depression, sometimes "being positive" is "getting out of bed and finding a way to make it through the day" or even simply not taking your own life. Writing a blurb about positive attitude suggests you're dismissive of the issue. I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. You're further warning them that if they do treat it their career is over and they should avoid that? You're being awful.
- phil21 9y ago
  > It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. > I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, and my advice is given as direct experience from my own life as the "victim" of my mental health being known professionally. I re-read my comment, and absolutely nothing about it was dismissive or implied to "think positively" as you imply. If I could go back in time I'd never tell anyone I was severely depressed. It is not a good career move, no matter how much you wish that not to be the case. It's absolutely downright dangerous to think anyone actually cares about you in this aspect of your career. > You're further warning them that if they do treat it their career is over and they should avoid that? You're being awful. Didn't say that at all. I said make sure it's not known you received said treatment, as your career in many managerial/executive fields is now over. Again, you can hate that statement all you want - but I'm telling a truth from my personal experience. I made no illusions as to me wanting this to be the case? Where did you get that? My point is thus: If you are known in executive circles in your industry to have had past mental health issues, your career is going to be severely impacted. Do you disagree with that statement? You don't have to want that to be the case, but you sure as hell need to know the game you are playing before you begin.

stevenbedrick 9y ago

That sounds like a really great realization to have had! For the record, what your old manager was doing (directly asking you about your mental health status in a quasi-interview setting) was probably illegal, at least in the US (IANAL). There are pretty strict rules around the kinds of things that employers are allowed to ask prospective employees about, and health (mental or otherwise) is very much on the "not allowed" list. Employees have a legal right to protection from discrimination along those lines, and companies (no matter how small) most definitely do _not_ have the right to discriminate in that way.

lazyasciiart 9y ago
Not quite. There are laws about why an employer can decide not to hire you, and it is easy to argue that if an employer asked about a protected condition and then decided not to hire you, they did so because of that information - so generally employers try very hard to avoid knowing about protected conditions for a candidate so they can't be accused of discrimination if they don't hire you. (In this case, the manager did more than just ask about it, he pretty much said they would reject him because of the condition, and that bit would be the evidence of illegal behavior).
- stevenbedrick 9y ago
  Ah, thanks for the clarification- that's a really important point.
just4themoney 9y ago
>health (mental or otherwise) is very much on the "not allowed" list This is a gross oversimplification to the point of being untrue. In addition to what the sibling comment said about asking itself not being illegal, you're allowed to discriminate based on health/disability status all you want if the disability prevents an employee from doing a bona fide job requirement and there isn't any "reasonable accommodation" you can provide for that employee. For example - if you're a interviewing/hiring for a job that requires the employee to, say, move heavy boxes all day you're going to need to ask that employee "can you lift and move boxes up to 60 pounds?" and you're going to have to reject candidates that can't due to health conditions. Likewise you may have to reject a candidate who is a bad coder even if he has a learning disability.

Mz 9y ago

I was always feeling like shit those days that I worked for him in large part because of how he ran things. This is an excellent point. It sounds like things are better for you and I am glad of that.