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Again, see my reply to ekianjo. The idea that "old-school hackers" were all libertarians and that the "hacker ethos" always consisted of the three things you me

Again, see my reply to ekianjo. The idea that "old-school hackers" were all libertarians and that the "hacker ethos" always consisted of the three things you mentioned above is mostly a myth that certain people are determinedly trying to turn into fact by rewriting history. For instance, see ESR's rewrite of the Jargon File, which was condemned and disavowed by the actual old-school hackers precisely because it injected so much libertarian thinking where previously there was none.

mindcrime 9y ago
That "old-school hackers" were all libertarians and that the "hacker ethos" always consisted of the three things you mentioned above is ... Nobody is saying that all "old-skool hackers" were libertarians, or that the "hacker ethic" is composed of nothing but those three things. But as long as I've been involved in what you could call "the hacker community" - a period of time that dates back more than 20 years now - I've observed that many self-described "hackers" did, indeed, adopt somewhat (albeit not exclusively) libertarian attitudes, and did adhere to principles like the ones mentioned above. Whether the mind-set of self-described "hackers" has changed over the years, or whether this site is simply made up of a lower percentage of "hackers" now is a question I can't really answer. Or maybe it's a combination of both. But in either case, it seems clear to me that there has been a shift in the overall tone of the community here, towards more acceptance of authoritarian approaches. And frankly I find that disturbing, but what can ya do?
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  > But as long as I've been involved in what you could call "the hacker community" - a period of time that dates back more than 20 years now - I've observed that many self-described "hackers" did, indeed, adopt somewhat (albeit not exclusively) libertarian attitudes, and did adhere to principles like the ones mentioned above. 20 years isn't nearly long enough to cover the phenomenon I'm describing. Part of my thesis is that, starting in the 80's, a vocal minority began attempting to redefine the "hacker ethos" to conform with their specific libertarian views, and that in the 90s, venture capitalists and SV "thought leaders" eagerly co-opted and encouraged this redefinition so that their drones would oppose any regulations that might get in the way of profit. So the fact that you've seen lots of libertarians in hacker spaces from the 90's onward doesn't disprove my point. > And frankly I find that disturbing, but what can ya do? You could start by realizing that calling your opponent's views "disturbing" does not automatically give you any moral weight. For example, I find it disturbing that people - equate "banning plastic bags" with tyranny - refuse to accept that coordination problems and externalities are a real thing and that not only is government the most efficient way to fix these issues, but, empirically, the only one that reliably works at all - are fine with widespread environmental destruction, for the sake of avoiding things they think are tyranny but really aren't but I just have to accept that you don't care about any of that.
  - mindcrime 9y ago
    but I just have to accept that you don't care about any of that. Or you may be mis-understanding the positions that actual libertarian leaning people hold, or at least painting with an overly broad brush. That is, there probably is at least one self-identified "libertarian" who represents each of those positions, but I will argue that none of those is an accurate depiction of what it means to hold libertarian ideals in any general sense. Part of my thesis is that, starting in the 80's, a vocal minority began attempting to redefine the "hacker ethos" to conform with their specific libertarian views, May be. But at least some of the anti-authority stuff as part of the hacker ethos dates back to the 1960's and the origins of this "scene", at least if I'm remembering some bits of Levy's Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution correctly.
    - Analemma_ 9y ago
      You're the one equating support for environmental regulations with support for authoritarianism (which is ridiculous), so I'm not really moved by your complaint that I'm misrepresenting your views.

mindcrime 9y ago

That "old-school hackers" were all libertarians and that the "hacker ethos" always consisted of the three things you mentioned above is ... Nobody is saying that all "old-skool hackers" were libertarians, or that the "hacker ethic" is composed of nothing but those three things. But as long as I've been involved in what you could call "the hacker community" - a period of time that dates back more than 20 years now - I've observed that many self-described "hackers" did, indeed, adopt somewhat (albeit not exclusively) libertarian attitudes, and did adhere to principles like the ones mentioned above. Whether the mind-set of self-described "hackers" has changed over the years, or whether this site is simply made up of a lower percentage of "hackers" now is a question I can't really answer. Or maybe it's a combination of both. But in either case, it seems clear to me that there has been a shift in the overall tone of the community here, towards more acceptance of authoritarian approaches. And frankly I find that disturbing, but what can ya do?

Analemma_ 9y ago
> But as long as I've been involved in what you could call "the hacker community" - a period of time that dates back more than 20 years now - I've observed that many self-described "hackers" did, indeed, adopt somewhat (albeit not exclusively) libertarian attitudes, and did adhere to principles like the ones mentioned above. 20 years isn't nearly long enough to cover the phenomenon I'm describing. Part of my thesis is that, starting in the 80's, a vocal minority began attempting to redefine the "hacker ethos" to conform with their specific libertarian views, and that in the 90s, venture capitalists and SV "thought leaders" eagerly co-opted and encouraged this redefinition so that their drones would oppose any regulations that might get in the way of profit. So the fact that you've seen lots of libertarians in hacker spaces from the 90's onward doesn't disprove my point. > And frankly I find that disturbing, but what can ya do? You could start by realizing that calling your opponent's views "disturbing" does not automatically give you any moral weight. For example, I find it disturbing that people - equate "banning plastic bags" with tyranny - refuse to accept that coordination problems and externalities are a real thing and that not only is government the most efficient way to fix these issues, but, empirically, the only one that reliably works at all - are fine with widespread environmental destruction, for the sake of avoiding things they think are tyranny but really aren't but I just have to accept that you don't care about any of that.
- mindcrime 9y ago
  but I just have to accept that you don't care about any of that. Or you may be mis-understanding the positions that actual libertarian leaning people hold, or at least painting with an overly broad brush. That is, there probably is at least one self-identified "libertarian" who represents each of those positions, but I will argue that none of those is an accurate depiction of what it means to hold libertarian ideals in any general sense. Part of my thesis is that, starting in the 80's, a vocal minority began attempting to redefine the "hacker ethos" to conform with their specific libertarian views, May be. But at least some of the anti-authority stuff as part of the hacker ethos dates back to the 1960's and the origins of this "scene", at least if I'm remembering some bits of Levy's Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution correctly.
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    You're the one equating support for environmental regulations with support for authoritarianism (which is ridiculous), so I'm not really moved by your complaint that I'm misrepresenting your views.