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You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women

You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I made that prompted you to reply; I haven't yet seen a criticism of that point but we can discuss it if you like. Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. The net effect of this type of comment is to minimise the more severe discrimination experienced by women and minorities. To diminish the power of their experience. So, to sum up; you replied to me to argue against a straw man, with the effect (conscious or not) of minimising the discrimination suffered by women and minorities. My best guess is that you feel guilt by association, possibly insecurity. You're fed up of feeling that and are pushing back in order to feel better. It's understandable, it's natural. I've got two points to make here that might help: (1) There are other ways to make yourself feel better. Listening to people & helping is a good one. Reframe yourself as someone helping solve the problem, rather than someone trying to diminish the problem. (2) Society is not a zero sum game. Raising up women and minorities does not mean knocking down men, even though sometimes it might feel that way. Hope that helps. Thanks for the up-vote, right back at you.

mindcrime 9y ago
I think we're just talking around each other here. Anyway, I've said all I have to say about this for now. People can take from it what they will.
- richmarr 9y ago
  > I think we're just talking around each other here. No, we aren't talking around each other at all, but I can understand why you might feel uncomfortable discussing your motivations so by all means let's stop.
  - mindcrime 9y ago
    I'm not uncomfortable about anything, but this clearly isn't productive.
    - richmarr 9y ago
      Uh huh, sure. So to try and make your next discussion productive, maybe try using evidence, try not creating straw-man arguments, try not deflecting or changing the subject in response to points made by other people.
Nadya 9y ago
>Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. I grew up in a poor, primarily black/latino urban community. Not to anyone's surprise, the minority groups of the area (whites/asians) received far more discrimination than the majority groups. That's going to happen basically anywhere. Classic in/out group dynamics that humans display in every society across the world that I can think of. This idea that white people only suffer "small amounts of discrimination, under a broad definition" is a joke. Ever been beaten up just because you were white and walking through a black neighborhood? Is that "small discrimination" or am I spreading the definition too broadly? Because to me it sounds like you grew up in a primarily white suburb and assumed because white people don't experience much/any discrimination in an area where they are the majority that they simply can't experience any meaningful amounts of discrimination anywhere. >You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. And the point that was trying to be made is that white people can be a minority. So nothing is contradicting this statement or the experience of white men who have faced discrimination. The problem is that in modern dialogue, white people are assumed to be the majority always and as such have no say in discrimination because they can't "possibly have faced any meaningful amount".
- richmarr 9y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that you had a hard time. > This idea that white people only suffer "small amounts of discrimination, under a broad definition" is a joke ...and is not something that I said. The rest of your comment follows from that fundamental misunderstanding so I'll stop here.
  - Nadya 9y ago
    Which is why mindcrime feels you two are talking past one another; because you were. You're arguing statistics and the three of us (Caveman_Coder, mindcrime, and myself) are arguing that using that statistic to be dismissive is not acceptable. Which may not be what you're trying to argue, but is something it seems you are defending. It is used to dismiss any experiences of discrimination faced by white men because "statistically they're more likely to be better off and experience less discrimination as a whole" which is not always true on an individual level or anywhere where being white puts them in the minority. Let's go all the way back to a great, great grandparent that started this whole thread [0]. The argument is that white men can experience discrimination, and to tell people to piss off if they say otherwise. Then you specifically brought up that white men, statistically, experience less discrimination as a whole [1]. Which is not the argument put forward. The argument put forward was: "white men can experience discrimination, piss off if you say otherwise". Which is why mindcrime responds [2] that it is a mistake to understate the discrimination that white men can face. You then follow up in [3] continuing to argue the statistic argument, when nobody is arguing the statistic. They're saying that being dismissive of white men's experiences of discrimination because of that statistic is bullshit which is the argument made in [0]. It may not have been what you meant - but it is how both myself and mindcrime interpreted your argument. If you still feel I've completely misread the discussion that is fine, I only wanted to explain how I came to my position. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703015 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703259 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703837 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14709785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14709785

mindcrime 9y ago

I think we're just talking around each other here. Anyway, I've said all I have to say about this for now. People can take from it what they will.

richmarr 9y ago
> I think we're just talking around each other here. No, we aren't talking around each other at all, but I can understand why you might feel uncomfortable discussing your motivations so by all means let's stop.
- mindcrime 9y ago
  I'm not uncomfortable about anything, but this clearly isn't productive.
  - richmarr 9y ago
    Uh huh, sure. So to try and make your next discussion productive, maybe try using evidence, try not creating straw-man arguments, try not deflecting or changing the subject in response to points made by other people.

Nadya 9y ago

>Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. I grew up in a poor, primarily black/latino urban community. Not to anyone's surprise, the minority groups of the area (whites/asians) received far more discrimination than the majority groups. That's going to happen basically anywhere. Classic in/out group dynamics that humans display in every society across the world that I can think of. This idea that white people only suffer "small amounts of discrimination, under a broad definition" is a joke. Ever been beaten up just because you were white and walking through a black neighborhood? Is that "small discrimination" or am I spreading the definition too broadly? Because to me it sounds like you grew up in a primarily white suburb and assumed because white people don't experience much/any discrimination in an area where they are the majority that they simply can't experience any meaningful amounts of discrimination anywhere. >You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. And the point that was trying to be made is that white people can be a minority. So nothing is contradicting this statement or the experience of white men who have faced discrimination. The problem is that in modern dialogue, white people are assumed to be the majority always and as such have no say in discrimination because they can't "possibly have faced any meaningful amount".

richmarr 9y ago
I'm sorry to hear that you had a hard time. > This idea that white people only suffer "small amounts of discrimination, under a broad definition" is a joke ...and is not something that I said. The rest of your comment follows from that fundamental misunderstanding so I'll stop here.
- Nadya 9y ago
  Which is why mindcrime feels you two are talking past one another; because you were. You're arguing statistics and the three of us (Caveman_Coder, mindcrime, and myself) are arguing that using that statistic to be dismissive is not acceptable. Which may not be what you're trying to argue, but is something it seems you are defending. It is used to dismiss any experiences of discrimination faced by white men because "statistically they're more likely to be better off and experience less discrimination as a whole" which is not always true on an individual level or anywhere where being white puts them in the minority. Let's go all the way back to a great, great grandparent that started this whole thread [0]. The argument is that white men can experience discrimination, and to tell people to piss off if they say otherwise. Then you specifically brought up that white men, statistically, experience less discrimination as a whole [1]. Which is not the argument put forward. The argument put forward was: "white men can experience discrimination, piss off if you say otherwise". Which is why mindcrime responds [2] that it is a mistake to understate the discrimination that white men can face. You then follow up in [3] continuing to argue the statistic argument, when nobody is arguing the statistic. They're saying that being dismissive of white men's experiences of discrimination because of that statistic is bullshit which is the argument made in [0]. It may not have been what you meant - but it is how both myself and mindcrime interpreted your argument. If you still feel I've completely misread the discussion that is fine, I only wanted to explain how I came to my position. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703015 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703259 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703837 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14709785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14709785