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How would HN be reacting if this were written by and about a man? There are a lot of gender expectations that punish assertive and matter of fact women as 'bit

by gerbal 9y ago

How would HN be reacting if this were written by and about a man? There are a lot of gender expectations that punish assertive and matter of fact women as 'bitchy' and 'insensitive'. If a white guy behaves the same way no one thinks twice about it. To me it sounds like management at Github is uncomfortable with her perspectives. We often see women and minorities censured for not trying to conform to the model of a demure, inoffensive, and compliant minority. Much like the comments here, Github management appears to prefer to focus on the perceived personality flaws of someone who makes others uncomfortable by her presence rather than underlying issues causing their discomfort. The "insensitivity" mentioned in the piece appears to be largely based on the fact that the author behaves much like a white guy would in these situations.

hasenj 9y ago
> How would HN be reacting if this were written by and about a man? There are a lot of gender expectations that punish assertive and matter of fact women as 'bitchy' and 'insensitive'. Did you just assume my reaction? (partly sarcastic). If you know anything about tech and blogging and HN, you should know that most posts get flamed and dissected very quickly. People have very strong opinions and have very low tolerance for BS. The only difference is, people from the "social justice" community always make it personal. "What? You criticize me? It must be because of my race/skin/gender/religion/orientation, you bigoted monster!".
- hiyou102 9y ago
  This is easily disprovable. See for example this post about being fired from the exact same company: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9158913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9158913 Despite the post having less details,there is less negativity and uncertainty. For reference as to why that might be, refer to the post you are responding to.
  - hasenj 9y ago
    Really? "Look, someone else wrote a post about leaving github and it wasn't received as negatively! It must because one was a white male and the other was transgender." No. How about, the tone of the post is completely different?
    - hiyou102 9y ago
      One Github issue is not sufficient to gain a understanding of what it would be like work with someone. Any blanks that are being filled in here are being done by yours and others baises.This a proven effect in other cases: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/are-successful-women-really-less-likable-than-successful-men/273926/ https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/are-succes... So many devils advocates in this thread you'd think Github hired his law firm
      - thehardsphere 9y ago
        Umm, people are not judging Coraline based on a single Github issue, but in her own description of how the people around her behaved and what she says she thought about it. The Opal business is entirely secondary. It's fine if you think they have biases and you want to cite The Atlantic as some sort of proof of that, but that doesn't mean that those conclusions you don't like are automatically wrong.
  - onli 9y ago
    Context matters. Someone who opens https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 (read the tweets that she references, it is ridiculous to be upset about them) should not be surprised not to be welcomed by people doing actual work. And having his texts interpreted accordingly.
StrangeOrange 9y ago
This. Exactly this. And half the comments I've read in this thread just add weight to the idea that the tech world is ruled by bigots who don't even know they're bigots. I see the words "Devil's Advocate" come up a lot when the person in question is not an average white man. I'm a straight white man, and some people in here make me really hate straight white men.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > I'm a straight white man, and some people in here make me really hate straight white men. But I'm guessing you don't include yourself in this hatred? You are one of the special, enlightened few..
- mirko22 9y ago
  Well then I have news for you, you might be a bigot. If bigot means: a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
thehardsphere 9y ago
I think if this were a man, the HN reaction would actually be far more negative. As it stands right now, the discussion here is basically a debate over whether or not Coraline was discriminated against in some way, or if she was fired for some legitimate reason. Even if you dispute the facts of this case, there's a potential larger issue about inclusivity and discrimination in tech there that is worth talking about at least somewhat, regardless of what you think of it. If Coraline were a man, then all that entire larger issue goes away and this post would be nothing more than a man whining about being fired. There's nothing much worth discussing about a man being fired. If anything, I'd expect that they would be censured for acting in an unseemly way for a man.
- empthought 9y ago
  This is a presentation by Coraline given in 2013 at Ruby Midwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TOY4lufIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TOY4lufIM
  - thehardsphere 9y ago
    I'm not going to watch the entire 30 minute video on my phone. Is the point you're not actually making that Coraline previously was known as Corey and appeared to be a man?
    - empthought 9y ago
      My point is that approaching this with a "I think if this were a man..." hypothetical is doomed to end in confusion. 1. Some people will think Coraline is a man. 1a. Those people might well discriminate against Coraline for failing to live up to gender stereotypes expected of a man ("deal with it!") 2. Some people will think Coraline is a woman. 2a. Those people might well discriminate against Coraline for failing to live up to gender stereotypes expected of a woman ("more empathetic communication!")
      - thehardsphere 9y ago

by gerbal 9y ago

hasenj 9y ago

> How would HN be reacting if this were written by and about a man? There are a lot of gender expectations that punish assertive and matter of fact women as 'bitchy' and 'insensitive'. Did you just assume my reaction? (partly sarcastic). If you know anything about tech and blogging and HN, you should know that most posts get flamed and dissected very quickly. People have very strong opinions and have very low tolerance for BS. The only difference is, people from the "social justice" community always make it personal. "What? You criticize me? It must be because of my race/skin/gender/religion/orientation, you bigoted monster!".

hiyou102 9y ago
This is easily disprovable. See for example this post about being fired from the exact same company: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9158913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9158913 Despite the post having less details,there is less negativity and uncertainty. For reference as to why that might be, refer to the post you are responding to.
- hasenj 9y ago
  Really? "Look, someone else wrote a post about leaving github and it wasn't received as negatively! It must because one was a white male and the other was transgender." No. How about, the tone of the post is completely different?
  - hiyou102 9y ago
    One Github issue is not sufficient to gain a understanding of what it would be like work with someone. Any blanks that are being filled in here are being done by yours and others baises.This a proven effect in other cases: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/are-successful-women-really-less-likable-than-successful-men/273926/ https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/are-succes... So many devils advocates in this thread you'd think Github hired his law firm
    - thehardsphere 9y ago
      Umm, people are not judging Coraline based on a single Github issue, but in her own description of how the people around her behaved and what she says she thought about it. The Opal business is entirely secondary. It's fine if you think they have biases and you want to cite The Atlantic as some sort of proof of that, but that doesn't mean that those conclusions you don't like are automatically wrong.
- onli 9y ago
  Context matters. Someone who opens https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 (read the tweets that she references, it is ridiculous to be upset about them) should not be surprised not to be welcomed by people doing actual work. And having his texts interpreted accordingly.

StrangeOrange 9y ago

This. Exactly this. And half the comments I've read in this thread just add weight to the idea that the tech world is ruled by bigots who don't even know they're bigots. I see the words "Devil's Advocate" come up a lot when the person in question is not an average white man. I'm a straight white man, and some people in here make me really hate straight white men.

Chris2048 9y ago
> I'm a straight white man, and some people in here make me really hate straight white men. But I'm guessing you don't include yourself in this hatred? You are one of the special, enlightened few..
mirko22 9y ago
Well then I have news for you, you might be a bigot. If bigot means: a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

thehardsphere 9y ago

I think if this were a man, the HN reaction would actually be far more negative. As it stands right now, the discussion here is basically a debate over whether or not Coraline was discriminated against in some way, or if she was fired for some legitimate reason. Even if you dispute the facts of this case, there's a potential larger issue about inclusivity and discrimination in tech there that is worth talking about at least somewhat, regardless of what you think of it. If Coraline were a man, then all that entire larger issue goes away and this post would be nothing more than a man whining about being fired. There's nothing much worth discussing about a man being fired. If anything, I'd expect that they would be censured for acting in an unseemly way for a man.

empthought 9y ago
This is a presentation by Coraline given in 2013 at Ruby Midwest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TOY4lufIM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2TOY4lufIM
- thehardsphere 9y ago
  I'm not going to watch the entire 30 minute video on my phone. Is the point you're not actually making that Coraline previously was known as Corey and appeared to be a man?
  - empthought 9y ago
    My point is that approaching this with a "I think if this were a man..." hypothetical is doomed to end in confusion. 1. Some people will think Coraline is a man. 1a. Those people might well discriminate against Coraline for failing to live up to gender stereotypes expected of a man ("deal with it!") 2. Some people will think Coraline is a woman. 2a. Those people might well discriminate against Coraline for failing to live up to gender stereotypes expected of a woman ("more empathetic communication!")
    - thehardsphere 9y ago