4 ms·

Yes, you could in theory be disciminated against for your shortness, or fatness, or mirth, or fashion sense, opinion, or eyebrow girth. However... Have you ev

Yes, you could in theory be disciminated against for your shortness, or fatness, or mirth, or fashion sense, opinion, or eyebrow girth. However... Have you ever been held captive & forced into labour on the basis of your atheism? Has your father ever been told you deserved no democratic vote because of your weight? Have you ever told you weren't allowed to marry someone else because of your height? Have you ever been held in an internment camp because of an intellectual opinion? Have you ever been restricted to a particular school, or public toilet, because of your accent? Maybe you see why comparing those characteristics with race/gender/orientation might not be appropriate.

mindcrime 9y ago
I'm not "comparing" anything. Simply pointing out that non-white / non-male individuals don't have a monopoly on experiencing discrimination. Nothing you said above contradicts that in any way. I'm not saying that certain group don't experience more or even more severe discrimination. But this narrative that seems so prevalent today, the whole "you can't know anything about discrimination if you're a white male, and by the way, you white males are the root of all evil" is not supported. And FWIW, I did not down-vote you. In fact, have a corrective up-vote on me.
- richmarr 9y ago
  You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I made that prompted you to reply; I haven't yet seen a criticism of that point but we can discuss it if you like. Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. The net effect of this type of comment is to minimise the more severe discrimination experienced by women and minorities. To diminish the power of their experience. So, to sum up; you replied to me to argue against a straw man, with the effect (conscious or not) of minimising the discrimination suffered by women and minorities. My best guess is that you feel guilt by association, possibly insecurity. You're fed up of feeling that and are pushing back in order to feel better. It's understandable, it's natural. I've got two points to make here that might help: (1) There are other ways to make yourself feel better. Listening to people & helping is a good one. Reframe yourself as someone helping solve the problem, rather than someone trying to diminish the problem. (2) Society is not a zero sum game. Raising up women and minorities does not mean knocking down men, even though sometimes it might feel that way. Hope that helps. Thanks for the up-vote, right back at you.
  - mindcrime 9y ago
    I think we're just talking around each other here. Anyway, I've said all I have to say about this for now. People can take from it what they will.
    - richmarr 9y ago
      > I think we're just talking around each other here. No, we aren't talking around each other at all, but I can understand why you might feel uncomfortable discussing your motivations so by all means let's stop.
      - mindcrime 9y ago
        I'm not uncomfortable about anything, but this clearly isn't productive.
        richmarr 9y ago
        Uh huh, sure. So to try and make your next discussion productive, maybe try using evidence, try not creating straw-man arguments, try not deflecting or changing the subject in response to points made by other people.
  - Nadya 9y ago
    >Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. I grew up in a poor, primarily black/latino urban community. Not to anyone's surprise, the minority groups of the area (whites/asians) received far more discrimination than the majority groups. That's going to happen basically anywhere. Classic in/out group dynamics that humans display in every society across the world that I can think of. This idea that white people only suffer "small amounts of discrimination, under a broad definition" is a joke. Ever been beaten up just because you were white and walking through a black neighborhood? Is that "small discrimination" or am I spreading the definition too broadly? Because to me it sounds like you grew up in a primarily white suburb and assumed because white people don't experience much/any discrimination in an area where they are the majority that they simply can't experience any meaningful amounts of discrimination anywhere. >You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. And the point that was trying to be made is that white people can be a minority. So nothing is contradicting this statement or the experience of white men who have faced discrimination. The problem is that in modern dialogue, white people are assumed to be the majority always and as such have no say in discrimination because they can't "possibly have faced any meaningful amount".

mindcrime 9y ago

I'm not "comparing" anything. Simply pointing out that non-white / non-male individuals don't have a monopoly on experiencing discrimination. Nothing you said above contradicts that in any way. I'm not saying that certain group don't experience more or even more severe discrimination. But this narrative that seems so prevalent today, the whole "you can't know anything about discrimination if you're a white male, and by the way, you white males are the root of all evil" is not supported. And FWIW, I did not down-vote you. In fact, have a corrective up-vote on me.

richmarr 9y ago
You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I made that prompted you to reply; I haven't yet seen a criticism of that point but we can discuss it if you like. Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. The net effect of this type of comment is to minimise the more severe discrimination experienced by women and minorities. To diminish the power of their experience. So, to sum up; you replied to me to argue against a straw man, with the effect (conscious or not) of minimising the discrimination suffered by women and minorities. My best guess is that you feel guilt by association, possibly insecurity. You're fed up of feeling that and are pushing back in order to feel better. It's understandable, it's natural. I've got two points to make here that might help: (1) There are other ways to make yourself feel better. Listening to people & helping is a good one. Reframe yourself as someone helping solve the problem, rather than someone trying to diminish the problem. (2) Society is not a zero sum game. Raising up women and minorities does not mean knocking down men, even though sometimes it might feel that way. Hope that helps. Thanks for the up-vote, right back at you.
- mindcrime 9y ago
  I think we're just talking around each other here. Anyway, I've said all I have to say about this for now. People can take from it what they will.
  - richmarr 9y ago
    > I think we're just talking around each other here. No, we aren't talking around each other at all, but I can understand why you might feel uncomfortable discussing your motivations so by all means let's stop.
    - mindcrime 9y ago
      I'm not uncomfortable about anything, but this clearly isn't productive.
      - richmarr 9y ago
        Uh huh, sure. So to try and make your next discussion productive, maybe try using evidence, try not creating straw-man arguments, try not deflecting or changing the subject in response to points made by other people.
- Nadya 9y ago
  >Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful. I grew up in a poor, primarily black/latino urban community. Not to anyone's surprise, the minority groups of the area (whites/asians) received far more discrimination than the majority groups. That's going to happen basically anywhere. Classic in/out group dynamics that humans display in every society across the world that I can think of. This idea that white people only suffer "small amounts of discrimination, under a broad definition" is a joke. Ever been beaten up just because you were white and walking through a black neighborhood? Is that "small discrimination" or am I spreading the definition too broadly? Because to me it sounds like you grew up in a primarily white suburb and assumed because white people don't experience much/any discrimination in an area where they are the majority that they simply can't experience any meaningful amounts of discrimination anywhere. >You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. And the point that was trying to be made is that white people can be a minority. So nothing is contradicting this statement or the experience of white men who have faced discrimination. The problem is that in modern dialogue, white people are assumed to be the majority always and as such have no say in discrimination because they can't "possibly have faced any meaningful amount".