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"As I've understood the concept for something like a decade, PIPs are almost universally understood to be a soft form of firing." FWIW, they've never been at a

"As I've understood the concept for something like a decade, PIPs are almost universally understood to be a soft form of firing." FWIW, they've never been at any company i've managed at, or org i've belonged to :) I certainly believe such companies exist, i'm not stupid. I just am not sure I believe they are as prevalent as you do. The only question in the room (from either HR or the manager) has always been "how do we help this person get better". In fact, there were cases a PIP was decided against because it wasn't going to be effective in helping. We simply offered fork in the road instead. As for "sabotaging relationships", in every successful PIP i've seen, the person is still working at the company years later. So .... Apparently i'm just very lucky ;) (which is, of course, within the realm of possibility)

tptacek 9y ago
I'm not denying that you've worked in places where HR convinced line managers that PIPs were a "legitimate" management tool. But I am saying that in making that decision, HR at those places exhibited incompetence: they left a reasonable developer with significant professional experience in a position to wonder whether continuing to work on that team was rational. More on-point for the thread: I don't think it's reasonable to argue that someone pointing this out is "cynical". :)
- DannyBee 9y ago
  "But I am saying that in making that decision, HR at those places exhibited incompetence: they left a reasonable developer with significant professional experience in a position to wonder whether continuing to work on that team was rational." I'm going to strongly disagree with this one, but it's clear you and i will not agree about this. "More on-point for the thread: I don't think it's reasonable to argue that someone pointing this out is "cynical". :) " I still believe think it's incredibly cynical to assume and write that the only purpose of a PIP is to formally make up evidence so you can fire someone. Precisely because i've worked at places where that is very specifically not the intent.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    Fair enough! You've forgotten more about managing devs than I ever plan to know. Just don't be surprised that there's a pretty big chunk of the profession that will make this assumption about PIPs.
    - Jare 9y ago
      I imagine most seasoned professionals placed on a PIP will probably already have a reasonable guess if it's a BS posture or honest attempt to fix a problem. If not from the get go, definitely by the first 1:1. I guess, it doesn't really matter what the company calls this process or how it's presented, only how it is conducted. If you even mildly agree with the reasons presented for it, and you get positive feedback soon, it may work out, otherwise it most surely won't, regardless of the honesty behind it.
      - nostrademons 9y ago
        I would imagine that most seasoned professionals who can tell this don't put themselves in a position where they are likely to get PIPed in the first place. If it's a culture fit problem, they remove themselves from consideration at organizations that don't share their values. If it's a skill problem, they work like hell to correct the problem before their manager notices.
        sah2ed 9y ago
        > they remove themselves from consideration at organizations that don't share their values. Not necessarily feasible in all situations. Sometimes a seasoned professional is only able to find out about culture fit after working there for a while. Like Chris Lattner recently found out that he didn't belong at Tesla. https://mobile.twitter.com/clattner_llvm/status/877341760812232704 https://mobile.twitter.com/clattner_llvm/status/877341760812...
        Jare 9y ago
        Sometimes there are honestly mismatched expectations or understanding of how performance is measured and evaluated. Other times, people assume new roles, and some aspects of the new role are not prioritized correctly or just not working out. I have witnessed some such cases, and personally managed one. Working like hell does not help if the effort is expended in the wrong place. That's where the first 1:1 will be a clear indicator if the correction is working or not - if it's not working it may be a failure of a honest PIP, or PIP dressing up a decision that has already been made. But honest PIPs exist, and sometimes they do work to solve a problem that was not being solved by itself.

tptacek 9y ago

I'm not denying that you've worked in places where HR convinced line managers that PIPs were a "legitimate" management tool. But I am saying that in making that decision, HR at those places exhibited incompetence: they left a reasonable developer with significant professional experience in a position to wonder whether continuing to work on that team was rational. More on-point for the thread: I don't think it's reasonable to argue that someone pointing this out is "cynical". :)

DannyBee 9y ago
"But I am saying that in making that decision, HR at those places exhibited incompetence: they left a reasonable developer with significant professional experience in a position to wonder whether continuing to work on that team was rational." I'm going to strongly disagree with this one, but it's clear you and i will not agree about this. "More on-point for the thread: I don't think it's reasonable to argue that someone pointing this out is "cynical". :) " I still believe think it's incredibly cynical to assume and write that the only purpose of a PIP is to formally make up evidence so you can fire someone. Precisely because i've worked at places where that is very specifically not the intent.
- tptacek 9y ago
  Fair enough! You've forgotten more about managing devs than I ever plan to know. Just don't be surprised that there's a pretty big chunk of the profession that will make this assumption about PIPs.
  - Jare 9y ago
    I imagine most seasoned professionals placed on a PIP will probably already have a reasonable guess if it's a BS posture or honest attempt to fix a problem. If not from the get go, definitely by the first 1:1. I guess, it doesn't really matter what the company calls this process or how it's presented, only how it is conducted. If you even mildly agree with the reasons presented for it, and you get positive feedback soon, it may work out, otherwise it most surely won't, regardless of the honesty behind it.
    - nostrademons 9y ago
      I would imagine that most seasoned professionals who can tell this don't put themselves in a position where they are likely to get PIPed in the first place. If it's a culture fit problem, they remove themselves from consideration at organizations that don't share their values. If it's a skill problem, they work like hell to correct the problem before their manager notices.
      - sah2ed 9y ago
        > they remove themselves from consideration at organizations that don't share their values. Not necessarily feasible in all situations. Sometimes a seasoned professional is only able to find out about culture fit after working there for a while. Like Chris Lattner recently found out that he didn't belong at Tesla. https://mobile.twitter.com/clattner_llvm/status/877341760812232704 https://mobile.twitter.com/clattner_llvm/status/877341760812...
      - Jare 9y ago
        Sometimes there are honestly mismatched expectations or understanding of how performance is measured and evaluated. Other times, people assume new roles, and some aspects of the new role are not prioritized correctly or just not working out. I have witnessed some such cases, and personally managed one. Working like hell does not help if the effort is expended in the wrong place. That's where the first 1:1 will be a clear indicator if the correction is working or not - if it's not working it may be a failure of a honest PIP, or PIP dressing up a decision that has already been made. But honest PIPs exist, and sometimes they do work to solve a problem that was not being solved by itself.