4 ms·

I work on the Windows team and was front row at the big Win8 planning meeting. It was good fun with Steve Ballmer shouting right in front of me (I'd never exper

by sgk284 16y ago

I work on the Windows team and was front row at the big Win8 planning meeting. It was good fun with Steve Ballmer shouting right in front of me (I'd never experienced that before... he's amazing at getting a crowd going). I can't say much... but these slides are laughable (and if real, designed for some other company's execs/marketers) I joined Microsoft this past September having never been a Windows person. I've done most of my professional development on linux, and you can pry my macbook pro from my cold dead hands. With that in mind, Win8 is looking awesome and it's something that I want to use right now. Microsoft is really getting their shit together. Win8, if it's even a fraction of what is planned, is going to change things permanently. This is a good thing considering Steve Jobs seems to have given up on the desktop as of this most recent WWDC.

jbrennan 16y ago
The thing about Windows is they don't really have to do very much and they'll still sell a boat load of copies. Windows 7 has sold tens of millions of copies. I would consider that a resounding success in such a short period of time. But the fact is, attention is quickly shifting away from desktop operating systems. So while it will be do doubt successful, I still wonder when Microsoft is going to step up their game on the mobile front.
- sgk284 16y ago
  While that's all true (one minor correction, 150 million Win7 licenses have been sold). If you haven't taken a look at Win7 mobile, you might want to. It's a pretty decent and novel approach to mobile UI. Microsoft has stepped up it's UI efforts in the past year or so. You're starting to see this in most of their products. They finally got a kick in the nuts after resting on their laurels for too long. Win8 shouldn't disappoint.
  - huhtenberg 16y ago
    Having looked through the slide deck I can't help but to draw the parallels with similar plans for Vista. "It will have this, it will have that, 3rd and 4th" and in the end all that left was the protected media path and the windows-tab gimmick. Perhaps MS has changed, but frankly given the history and considering its size and the amount of office politicking involved I find it fairly hard to believe.
- bad_user 16y ago
  > attention is quickly shifting away from desktop operating systems You could've said that 10 years ago, and it would still hold the same value of truth. Fact of the matter is, consumers and companies are still interested in desktops and laptops, and Windows is the default OS. Also, I know it's trendy to say this (since we are on HN and all) but this is wishful thinking.
  - jbrennan 16y ago
    Don't get me wrong, I think people will continue to buy "desktop" class computers for a long time to come, and in great numbers, so I believe Windows on the desktop has a long and prosperous future ahead of it. But so far as where the growth is these days, it's all in mobile.
mkramlich 16y ago
If most of your pro experience has been with Linux, and you seem to love your Macbook Pro, I'm really curious to know why you went to work at Microsoft? This is a serious question.
- sgk284 16y ago
  Without getting into too much detail, I had previously worked at Google (which was a great experience, I recommend everyone does that at some point). I eventually found myself back in my hometown (Philadelphia) for a bit and my girlfriend and I decided we wanted to check out what was going on in Seattle. I had a bunch of offers but mostly looked at Amazon and Microsoft. I chose Microsoft because they are doing some amazing things internally right now. They also have some ridiculous talent (and their hiring changes over the past few years have only made it better). There is nothing better than working with other brilliant engineers. In the end though, it was just about interesting work. Microsoft has acknowledged that they need to step up their game, and convinced me to come along for the ride. I've been there for 10 months now and so far they've stayed true to their word. It is a lot of fun there. I wasn't sure how it'd compare to Google, but Microsoft has surpassed my expectations. The only thing I miss is the free food. It was never about what operating system or programming language, Microsoft offered me the most interesting challenge. So I took it.
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    thank you for answering that!
- leif 16y ago
  Because if you like solving problems, the problem, not the technology, is the most important thing. Seattle's a pretty nice town too. At least, that's my answer.
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    Yes but there are other important things in life other than simply solving technical problems. And there are plenty of problems to solve that do not involve Microsoft or Windows. And choice of technology mix has a big impact on things like personal productivity and quality of life.
mkramlich 16y ago
Btw I don't think there's evidence that Apple has given up on the desktop. Only that their last few big product releases have been in the iPhone/iPad space. Like any company (and perhaps more so than Microsoft) they have a finite number of internal staff, especially in key roles and with key talents (eg. 1 Jobs, 1 Ive), and I'd bet that there would be some internal decision to focus and do something like a product/release sprint. Plus, there's probably a lot more room for innovation in the phone/tablet space than in the desktop space, so it seems reasonable to want to strike while the iron is hot. If you can link to some quote where Jobs has said something equivalent to "we're giving up on the desktop space", I'll retract my argument.
- code_duck 16y ago
  Apple's desktop is slick enough that they could probably give up on it for a couple of years, and they'd still be ahead of everyone else.
mkramlich 16y ago
The thing about Microsoft, speaking as a fan of Linux and Mac, is that it doesn't really matter if they get their shit together. Mac and Linux already exist, and they can beat Windows in the premium/shiny and cheap/utility departments, respectively. Those two right there are going to satisfy a lot of people's needs. About the two biggest factors in Microsoft's favor remaining are (1) selling home consumer PC's to folks who want/need something cheaper than a Mac, and (2) legacy application inertia. iPad and Linux desktops can somewhat attack (1), and the advantage of (2) will slowly wear away over time I think as more and more ppl/bizs find acceptable replacements on Mac, iPad or Linux.
- talonx 16y ago
  >>Mac and Linux already exist, and they can beat Windows in the premium/shiny and cheap/utility departments, respectively. Those two right there are going to satisfy a lot of people's needs. Mac, yes. Linux? No. The key word that Linux distros (including Ubuntu) still miss is usability. Btw, Windows _and_ Linux user here.
  - cookiecaper 16y ago
    That's a popular point to harp on but I think that Linux desktop environments are just fine for usability. There are a few quirks (like "Unmount, Eject, Safely Remove" in GNOME), and frankly it's surprising that they haven't been ironed out, but for the most part I think that Linux is just as friendly as anything else. The real problems with Linux are much lower-level -- its vital desktop infrastructure has been ignored for too long. Look at X; there is a concerted effort to change it now, but rather late to the game if you ask me, and it still is very neglected for how important it is and all the work that's left to be done on it. Sound is the same way, and other vital components for desktop.
- smikhanov 16y ago
  The biggest factor in favor of Microsoft is (and will be for some years at least) the bulk of orders from BigCos that are placed for hundreds of HP or Dell machines with Windows preinstalled. Apple's (or Linux's) share in the corporate segment is still tiny.
aditya42 16y ago
Au contraire, Steve Jobs responded to a mail asking him if the Mac was dead with "You couldn't be more wrong." and a "Stay tuned" type phrase (can't seem to find the link right now). I haven't gone through these slides thoroughly because I'm done with Microsoft peddling vapourware and getting our hopes up (coughCouriercough) only to sack the entire team (or whatever they did recently), but whatever I saw showed me a tighter integration with using the cloud as storage. The problem here is that Microsoft is trying to make a faster, leaner and better looking truck (to borrow Jobs' description) because it has lost the mobile game; at least for now. They're trying to maintain the status quo, but nothing in the last 10 years has shown me anything that tells me they will succeed. I don't believe in their ability to execute.
- josefresco 16y ago
  Sorry but Jobs had similar things to say about the latest iPhone leading us all to believe something huge was coming. All we got however was an updated iPhone with a few new but under-whelming features. The moral is I wouldn't read much into what Job's says as he'll always be touting his next announcement as "huge" even if it's not. The first iPod, iPhone and iPad were game changers, the subsequent updates were not. The only revolutionary place that OSX can go is the way of the marketplace/app store and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
  - tvon 16y ago
    If OSX 10.7 is as well received as the iPhone 4 then OSX will do just fine. Not every update needs to be revolutionary.
  - nickelplate 16y ago
    Jobs only said there was no chance Google would leapfrog them, and that WWDC would not disappoint (which it didn't). No one expected iPhone 4 to be more of a game changer than the first iPhone.
tvon 16y ago
> Microsoft is really getting their shit together. Win8, if it's even a fraction of what is planned, is going to change things permanently. No offense, but I don't believe you.
loewenskind 16y ago
>Microsoft is really getting their shit together. Win8, if it's even a fraction of what is planned, is going to change things permanently. This is a good thing considering Steve Jobs seems to have given up on the desktop as of this most recent WWDC. Honestly this kind of thing is exactly what makes me think they don't "have their shit together". They're going to run out and say "look everyone! We have a desktop OS that's slightly better than OSX!" right as most people have moved off desktops. Seriously. Look at what most people do. How much time does the average computer user spend consuming? And how much time producing? Just from the hip I would put this at 80/20 but it might be even more slanted than that. So does Grandma really need a whole PC to email her bridge group and surf the web for recipes? And one that has a "reset this PC" button? Why does she need to know any of this stuff? What Steve said wasn't that Mac will be giving up on the desktop. He was just acknowledging that in the future it's going to play a vastly smaller role. It's still going to need to be really good because those of us that produce on it will be powering the mobile/appliance devices. I don't want to develop on an iPad but I like consuming with it. Microsoft just doesn't seem to grasp this somehow and keeps trying to win a battlefield that everyone else realizes will just get less relevant as time goes on. Are they just concentrating on business users? MS had them at NT. You can say "oh but we've got that covered, look at the new <insert newest MS mobile OS here>" but it doesn't exist right now. All the buzz I see/hear is about iPhone, Anroid and Palm. Is MS really committed to mobile to the level they need to be? If it is I don't think they're getting it across very well. Funny enough, MS does have a nice install base of a an appliance device: the X box. Are they planning an App store for it (not a game store, an app store)? Can I purchase songs that sync with my media player?

by sgk284 16y ago

jbrennan 16y ago

The thing about Windows is they don't really have to do very much and they'll still sell a boat load of copies. Windows 7 has sold tens of millions of copies. I would consider that a resounding success in such a short period of time. But the fact is, attention is quickly shifting away from desktop operating systems. So while it will be do doubt successful, I still wonder when Microsoft is going to step up their game on the mobile front.

sgk284 16y ago
While that's all true (one minor correction, 150 million Win7 licenses have been sold). If you haven't taken a look at Win7 mobile, you might want to. It's a pretty decent and novel approach to mobile UI. Microsoft has stepped up it's UI efforts in the past year or so. You're starting to see this in most of their products. They finally got a kick in the nuts after resting on their laurels for too long. Win8 shouldn't disappoint.
- huhtenberg 16y ago
  Having looked through the slide deck I can't help but to draw the parallels with similar plans for Vista. "It will have this, it will have that, 3rd and 4th" and in the end all that left was the protected media path and the windows-tab gimmick. Perhaps MS has changed, but frankly given the history and considering its size and the amount of office politicking involved I find it fairly hard to believe.
bad_user 16y ago
> attention is quickly shifting away from desktop operating systems You could've said that 10 years ago, and it would still hold the same value of truth. Fact of the matter is, consumers and companies are still interested in desktops and laptops, and Windows is the default OS. Also, I know it's trendy to say this (since we are on HN and all) but this is wishful thinking.
- jbrennan 16y ago
  Don't get me wrong, I think people will continue to buy "desktop" class computers for a long time to come, and in great numbers, so I believe Windows on the desktop has a long and prosperous future ahead of it. But so far as where the growth is these days, it's all in mobile.

mkramlich 16y ago

If most of your pro experience has been with Linux, and you seem to love your Macbook Pro, I'm really curious to know why you went to work at Microsoft? This is a serious question.

sgk284 16y ago
Without getting into too much detail, I had previously worked at Google (which was a great experience, I recommend everyone does that at some point). I eventually found myself back in my hometown (Philadelphia) for a bit and my girlfriend and I decided we wanted to check out what was going on in Seattle. I had a bunch of offers but mostly looked at Amazon and Microsoft. I chose Microsoft because they are doing some amazing things internally right now. They also have some ridiculous talent (and their hiring changes over the past few years have only made it better). There is nothing better than working with other brilliant engineers. In the end though, it was just about interesting work. Microsoft has acknowledged that they need to step up their game, and convinced me to come along for the ride. I've been there for 10 months now and so far they've stayed true to their word. It is a lot of fun there. I wasn't sure how it'd compare to Google, but Microsoft has surpassed my expectations. The only thing I miss is the free food. It was never about what operating system or programming language, Microsoft offered me the most interesting challenge. So I took it.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  thank you for answering that!
leif 16y ago
Because if you like solving problems, the problem, not the technology, is the most important thing. Seattle's a pretty nice town too. At least, that's my answer.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  Yes but there are other important things in life other than simply solving technical problems. And there are plenty of problems to solve that do not involve Microsoft or Windows. And choice of technology mix has a big impact on things like personal productivity and quality of life.

mkramlich 16y ago

Btw I don't think there's evidence that Apple has given up on the desktop. Only that their last few big product releases have been in the iPhone/iPad space. Like any company (and perhaps more so than Microsoft) they have a finite number of internal staff, especially in key roles and with key talents (eg. 1 Jobs, 1 Ive), and I'd bet that there would be some internal decision to focus and do something like a product/release sprint. Plus, there's probably a lot more room for innovation in the phone/tablet space than in the desktop space, so it seems reasonable to want to strike while the iron is hot. If you can link to some quote where Jobs has said something equivalent to "we're giving up on the desktop space", I'll retract my argument.

code_duck 16y ago
Apple's desktop is slick enough that they could probably give up on it for a couple of years, and they'd still be ahead of everyone else.

mkramlich 16y ago

The thing about Microsoft, speaking as a fan of Linux and Mac, is that it doesn't really matter if they get their shit together. Mac and Linux already exist, and they can beat Windows in the premium/shiny and cheap/utility departments, respectively. Those two right there are going to satisfy a lot of people's needs. About the two biggest factors in Microsoft's favor remaining are (1) selling home consumer PC's to folks who want/need something cheaper than a Mac, and (2) legacy application inertia. iPad and Linux desktops can somewhat attack (1), and the advantage of (2) will slowly wear away over time I think as more and more ppl/bizs find acceptable replacements on Mac, iPad or Linux.

talonx 16y ago
>>Mac and Linux already exist, and they can beat Windows in the premium/shiny and cheap/utility departments, respectively. Those two right there are going to satisfy a lot of people's needs. Mac, yes. Linux? No. The key word that Linux distros (including Ubuntu) still miss is usability. Btw, Windows _and_ Linux user here.
- cookiecaper 16y ago
  That's a popular point to harp on but I think that Linux desktop environments are just fine for usability. There are a few quirks (like "Unmount, Eject, Safely Remove" in GNOME), and frankly it's surprising that they haven't been ironed out, but for the most part I think that Linux is just as friendly as anything else. The real problems with Linux are much lower-level -- its vital desktop infrastructure has been ignored for too long. Look at X; there is a concerted effort to change it now, but rather late to the game if you ask me, and it still is very neglected for how important it is and all the work that's left to be done on it. Sound is the same way, and other vital components for desktop.
smikhanov 16y ago
The biggest factor in favor of Microsoft is (and will be for some years at least) the bulk of orders from BigCos that are placed for hundreds of HP or Dell machines with Windows preinstalled. Apple's (or Linux's) share in the corporate segment is still tiny.

aditya42 16y ago

Au contraire, Steve Jobs responded to a mail asking him if the Mac was dead with "You couldn't be more wrong." and a "Stay tuned" type phrase (can't seem to find the link right now). I haven't gone through these slides thoroughly because I'm done with Microsoft peddling vapourware and getting our hopes up (coughCouriercough) only to sack the entire team (or whatever they did recently), but whatever I saw showed me a tighter integration with using the cloud as storage. The problem here is that Microsoft is trying to make a faster, leaner and better looking truck (to borrow Jobs' description) because it has lost the mobile game; at least for now. They're trying to maintain the status quo, but nothing in the last 10 years has shown me anything that tells me they will succeed. I don't believe in their ability to execute.

josefresco 16y ago
Sorry but Jobs had similar things to say about the latest iPhone leading us all to believe something huge was coming. All we got however was an updated iPhone with a few new but under-whelming features. The moral is I wouldn't read much into what Job's says as he'll always be touting his next announcement as "huge" even if it's not. The first iPod, iPhone and iPad were game changers, the subsequent updates were not. The only revolutionary place that OSX can go is the way of the marketplace/app store and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
- tvon 16y ago
  If OSX 10.7 is as well received as the iPhone 4 then OSX will do just fine. Not every update needs to be revolutionary.
- nickelplate 16y ago
  Jobs only said there was no chance Google would leapfrog them, and that WWDC would not disappoint (which it didn't). No one expected iPhone 4 to be more of a game changer than the first iPhone.

tvon 16y ago

> Microsoft is really getting their shit together. Win8, if it's even a fraction of what is planned, is going to change things permanently. No offense, but I don't believe you.

loewenskind 16y ago

>Microsoft is really getting their shit together. Win8, if it's even a fraction of what is planned, is going to change things permanently. This is a good thing considering Steve Jobs seems to have given up on the desktop as of this most recent WWDC. Honestly this kind of thing is exactly what makes me think they don't "have their shit together". They're going to run out and say "look everyone! We have a desktop OS that's slightly better than OSX!" right as most people have moved off desktops. Seriously. Look at what most people do. How much time does the average computer user spend consuming? And how much time producing? Just from the hip I would put this at 80/20 but it might be even more slanted than that. So does Grandma really need a whole PC to email her bridge group and surf the web for recipes? And one that has a "reset this PC" button? Why does she need to know any of this stuff? What Steve said wasn't that Mac will be giving up on the desktop. He was just acknowledging that in the future it's going to play a vastly smaller role. It's still going to need to be really good because those of us that produce on it will be powering the mobile/appliance devices. I don't want to develop on an iPad but I like consuming with it. Microsoft just doesn't seem to grasp this somehow and keeps trying to win a battlefield that everyone else realizes will just get less relevant as time goes on. Are they just concentrating on business users? MS had them at NT. You can say "oh but we've got that covered, look at the new <insert newest MS mobile OS here>" but it doesn't exist right now. All the buzz I see/hear is about iPhone, Anroid and Palm. Is MS really committed to mobile to the level they need to be? If it is I don't think they're getting it across very well. Funny enough, MS does have a nice install base of a an appliance device: the X box. Are they planning an App store for it (not a game store, an app store)? Can I purchase songs that sync with my media player?