4 ms·

Watch this video of a crash test between a 1959 Chevy and a 2009 Chevy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

by cwyers 9y ago

Watch this video of a crash test between a 1959 Chevy and a 2009 Chevy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g The '59 Chevy gets 13.5 miles per gallon. [1] The '09 Chevy gets 25. [2] Yes, modern cars are more difficult to maintain than older cars -- they require more specialized equipment to maintain, parts are more difficult to replace, so on and so forth. Modern cars are also incredibly more fuel efficient and safer to ride in, and much of that is enabled by the same engineering efforts that make cars more difficult to maintain. 1) http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/chevrolet_usa/full-size_chevrolet_5gen/full-size_bel_air_3gen_4-door_sedan/1959.html http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/chevrolet_usa/full-si... 2) https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/25483.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/25483.shtml

ksk 9y ago
The argument is more like 'soldered RAM' versus 'user replaceable RAM'.
- cwyers 9y ago
  Which is done because solder is thinner/lighter than sockets, and therefore you can get a thinner/lighter laptop. There are real engineering tradeoffs all over the place here that are being elided over in order to make "things should be easier/cheaper to repair" seem obvious rather than a complicated set of tradeoffs.
  - ksk 9y ago
    You shifted the argument (which nobody was making) to being "modern is better" using your car example. I'm bringing it back to user-serviceable is _better_. >Which is done because solder is thinner/lighter than sockets, and therefore you can get a thinner/lighter laptop. So let them figure out another way to make it thinner/lighter. I don't want them to do it at the expense of upgrading common parts. We're not asking for every single chip to be replaceable. Just the obvious parts that have an established 10+ year history of being serviceable. I bet welding every single part on a car makes it lighter too, but I don't think people want to replace the entire car if their fuel pump breaks. >There are real engineering tradeoffs all over the place here that are being elided Huh? You switched from purely cosmetic factors - thinner/lighter, to engineering. You will have to explain that one to me...
    - cwyers 9y ago
      Thinner and lighter are not purely cosmetic (although I think Apple overvalues them) -- laptops are meant to be carried and therefore being smaller/lighter are actual benefits. Even if they were purely cosmetic, however, there is actual engineering required to do them. The laws of the universe don't go, oh, you only want to make a cosmetic change, therefore you can get X into this space/thermal profile without any other tradeoffs. User-serviceable parts are better, all things being equal. But all things aren't equal. You're trying to mandate tradeoffs for everyone else, and I don't think you understand everyone else's tradeoffs well enough to do that.
      - ksk 9y ago
        I think at some point you're going to have to present an argument that user-serviceable RAM makes a perceptible difference in making the laptop thin/light going forward. Several assumptions - The RAM itself can't shrink or be made to be more energy efficient, or socket design is static, can be challenged. However a manufacturer without a mandate/incentive will probably never invest their efforts to making that happen. They're going to optimize for the commercial aspect of selling the product in a way that maximizes their bottom line via market segmentation and price gouging on storage. Obviously, making money is not something that I'm against, but I simply would like to see an acceptable compromise made between making money and making it repair-friendly. Like you said, everything is a trade-off.
        cwyers 9y ago
        You want me to present an argument that stuff that doesn't exist isn't better than stuff that exists? And "acceptable compromise" -- acceptable to who? Because the current compromise is acceptable to people who buy these laptops with soldered-on RAM. And it's not acceptable to those who buy other laptops that don't have soldered RAM. The compromise has been accepted by the market. "Well, the market got it wrong and should do it better," you might think. Sure, okay, but history is rife with examples of people telling markets to do things better and things not getting better, and it's helpful to think about why markets haven't gotten to better on their own.
- boznz 9y ago
  Re-soldering a chip is pretty easy. Being able to buy that chip in one-off quantities is sometimes next to impossible.

by cwyers 9y ago

ksk 9y ago

The argument is more like 'soldered RAM' versus 'user replaceable RAM'.

cwyers 9y ago
Which is done because solder is thinner/lighter than sockets, and therefore you can get a thinner/lighter laptop. There are real engineering tradeoffs all over the place here that are being elided over in order to make "things should be easier/cheaper to repair" seem obvious rather than a complicated set of tradeoffs.
- ksk 9y ago
  You shifted the argument (which nobody was making) to being "modern is better" using your car example. I'm bringing it back to user-serviceable is _better_. >Which is done because solder is thinner/lighter than sockets, and therefore you can get a thinner/lighter laptop. So let them figure out another way to make it thinner/lighter. I don't want them to do it at the expense of upgrading common parts. We're not asking for every single chip to be replaceable. Just the obvious parts that have an established 10+ year history of being serviceable. I bet welding every single part on a car makes it lighter too, but I don't think people want to replace the entire car if their fuel pump breaks. >There are real engineering tradeoffs all over the place here that are being elided Huh? You switched from purely cosmetic factors - thinner/lighter, to engineering. You will have to explain that one to me...
  - cwyers 9y ago
    Thinner and lighter are not purely cosmetic (although I think Apple overvalues them) -- laptops are meant to be carried and therefore being smaller/lighter are actual benefits. Even if they were purely cosmetic, however, there is actual engineering required to do them. The laws of the universe don't go, oh, you only want to make a cosmetic change, therefore you can get X into this space/thermal profile without any other tradeoffs. User-serviceable parts are better, all things being equal. But all things aren't equal. You're trying to mandate tradeoffs for everyone else, and I don't think you understand everyone else's tradeoffs well enough to do that.
    - ksk 9y ago
      I think at some point you're going to have to present an argument that user-serviceable RAM makes a perceptible difference in making the laptop thin/light going forward. Several assumptions - The RAM itself can't shrink or be made to be more energy efficient, or socket design is static, can be challenged. However a manufacturer without a mandate/incentive will probably never invest their efforts to making that happen. They're going to optimize for the commercial aspect of selling the product in a way that maximizes their bottom line via market segmentation and price gouging on storage. Obviously, making money is not something that I'm against, but I simply would like to see an acceptable compromise made between making money and making it repair-friendly. Like you said, everything is a trade-off.
      - cwyers 9y ago
        You want me to present an argument that stuff that doesn't exist isn't better than stuff that exists? And "acceptable compromise" -- acceptable to who? Because the current compromise is acceptable to people who buy these laptops with soldered-on RAM. And it's not acceptable to those who buy other laptops that don't have soldered RAM. The compromise has been accepted by the market. "Well, the market got it wrong and should do it better," you might think. Sure, okay, but history is rife with examples of people telling markets to do things better and things not getting better, and it's helpful to think about why markets haven't gotten to better on their own.
boznz 9y ago
Re-soldering a chip is pretty easy. Being able to buy that chip in one-off quantities is sometimes next to impossible.