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That's how I feel about it, too. There is no war. Women are not oppressed, men are not oppressors. We're all just people with problems who need support and c

by Dove 9y ago

That's how I feel about it, too. There is no war. Women are not oppressed, men are not oppressors. We're all just people with problems who need support and compassion. Besides being morally wrong, a tribal approach is limiting. If you can't learn from, if you can't make friends and allies with people from all walks of life, if you must sit in your little castle with the few you count as your tribe -- are you not obviously much poorer for it? I think so. Believing you are an outsider is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Just stand up and expect to belong. Judit Polgár eschewed women's chess events because she knew she belonged with the top competitors. And through perseverance and high expectations, this became obvious to everyone. That is how you change the world. Boldly expect acceptance, and my experience has been -- you will receive it. [Source: 20 years on the internet, as a gamer and in tech.] I think treating someone as disadvantaged, even if they're quadriplegic, does them no favors. It is a kindness to recognize situations in which they need help, but it is an unkindness to make invalid a part of their identity. Let the main story be strength and dignity and independence. And so with those of us whose problems are slighter. But there is a troubling trend I want to oppose. People seem to have the impression that if a member of class A says the wrong thing around a member of class B, the latter has the right to become vindictively angry. That's . . . really destructive. I think the policy I'm advocating is the best, but if you do something else, I'll take it as you mean it. I think most people are trying to be nice, and understanding and kindness and good old fashioned gettin' along do a whole lot more good than fighting some battle for cosmic justice by being a jerk in the break room.

ahartman00 9y ago
"If you can't learn from, if you can't make friends and allies with people from all walks of life, if you must sit in your little castle with the few you count as your tribe -- are you not obviously much poorer for it" Exactly, see this article from two days ago about how men and women are afraid to be alone with one another. Considering how often networking comes up in any job related thread, I think we are much poorer for it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14685873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14685873
ducttapecrown 9y ago
>Boldly expect acceptance, and my experience has been -- you will receive it. Thank you for your 2 anecdotes! Perhaps since Susan Fowler [0] followed your advice and did not achieve results, you will give her anecdote the same argumentative weight you give yours. But there is a troubling trend I want to oppose. People seem to argue that getting vindictively angry and fighting for your rights is wrong, and that its better to sit back and let others like you be oppressed. Fortunately, someone else has written on the subject far more eloquently than I have. [1] [0] https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-on... [1] https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
- RonanTheGrey 9y ago
  Susan Fowler's case - and the case of hundreds of thousands of other women, perhaps millions - are definitely valid and valuable. I think though, that what the OP is getting at is not so much "Well, if your bold expectation didn't work, oh well" but rather, "this is not how we behave, and I have faith in you as a human being that you either a) do not want, or b) can learn not to, treat me this way. Rather than go and make my own tribe, I'm going to insist that you treat me well within this tribe we already share." By all means get angry. Just don't resort to separating yourself. It's a harder road. It is not as glamorous. But the ends do not justify the means; because the means make the ends. If exclusivity is the tool we use, it is only to be expected that division and exclusion is what we end up with. If the goal is inclusion, it must also be the tool.
FooHentai 9y ago
>Besides being morally wrong, a tribal approach is limiting. If you can't learn from, if you can't make friends and allies with people from all walks of life, if you must sit in your little castle with the few you count as your tribe -- are you not obviously much poorer for it? I think so. Well put. I experienced this when moving abroad - Expatriates formed social groups based on their origin country, and their identities became disproportionately based upon that. For those people, interactions with anyone outside the ex-pat group usually centred around contrasting their home culture with the other party's culture, inevitably favouring the home country culture. The subtle problems this introduced for them were many, but they appeared to entirely lack insight into this or if they had it, admitting so was verboten. Outsider interactions were constantly tainted with an air of negativity that left the other party feeling less-than-good about the interaction, and so less likely to engage in future. The in-group folks frequently became unfairly disillusioned with their new country because of the distorted negativity field introduced by their group's favouritism towards the home country culture. Often members of the group would pack up and head back home, but after a few years would return having apparently remembered the reasons they left in the first place. This behaviour seemed not so bad since the countries in question were culturally not so far apart (same language, significant shared history, similar ethnic demographics). I can only imagine how alienating this behaviour is for migrants in countries with larger cultural differences.
- Dove 9y ago
  Fascinating experience. Thanks for sharing it!

by Dove 9y ago

ahartman00 9y ago

"If you can't learn from, if you can't make friends and allies with people from all walks of life, if you must sit in your little castle with the few you count as your tribe -- are you not obviously much poorer for it" Exactly, see this article from two days ago about how men and women are afraid to be alone with one another. Considering how often networking comes up in any job related thread, I think we are much poorer for it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14685873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14685873

ducttapecrown 9y ago

>Boldly expect acceptance, and my experience has been -- you will receive it. Thank you for your 2 anecdotes! Perhaps since Susan Fowler [0] followed your advice and did not achieve results, you will give her anecdote the same argumentative weight you give yours. But there is a troubling trend I want to oppose. People seem to argue that getting vindictively angry and fighting for your rights is wrong, and that its better to sit back and let others like you be oppressed. Fortunately, someone else has written on the subject far more eloquently than I have. [1] [0] https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-on... [1] https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

RonanTheGrey 9y ago
Susan Fowler's case - and the case of hundreds of thousands of other women, perhaps millions - are definitely valid and valuable. I think though, that what the OP is getting at is not so much "Well, if your bold expectation didn't work, oh well" but rather, "this is not how we behave, and I have faith in you as a human being that you either a) do not want, or b) can learn not to, treat me this way. Rather than go and make my own tribe, I'm going to insist that you treat me well within this tribe we already share." By all means get angry. Just don't resort to separating yourself. It's a harder road. It is not as glamorous. But the ends do not justify the means; because the means make the ends. If exclusivity is the tool we use, it is only to be expected that division and exclusion is what we end up with. If the goal is inclusion, it must also be the tool.

FooHentai 9y ago

>Besides being morally wrong, a tribal approach is limiting. If you can't learn from, if you can't make friends and allies with people from all walks of life, if you must sit in your little castle with the few you count as your tribe -- are you not obviously much poorer for it? I think so. Well put. I experienced this when moving abroad - Expatriates formed social groups based on their origin country, and their identities became disproportionately based upon that. For those people, interactions with anyone outside the ex-pat group usually centred around contrasting their home culture with the other party's culture, inevitably favouring the home country culture. The subtle problems this introduced for them were many, but they appeared to entirely lack insight into this or if they had it, admitting so was verboten. Outsider interactions were constantly tainted with an air of negativity that left the other party feeling less-than-good about the interaction, and so less likely to engage in future. The in-group folks frequently became unfairly disillusioned with their new country because of the distorted negativity field introduced by their group's favouritism towards the home country culture. Often members of the group would pack up and head back home, but after a few years would return having apparently remembered the reasons they left in the first place. This behaviour seemed not so bad since the countries in question were culturally not so far apart (same language, significant shared history, similar ethnic demographics). I can only imagine how alienating this behaviour is for migrants in countries with larger cultural differences.

Dove 9y ago
Fascinating experience. Thanks for sharing it!